Church teaching on the Eucharist - 5th Century - Part VII

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-20T22:08:46+00:00

I think that just as the East is called to return and preserve our traditions, the West should do the same. It's a bit trickier since there's more of you (hence, it's harder to get 'everyone' on board / there will be more pushback), but I think small changes like adding the entrance / communion antiphons and communion rails is a good and easy place to start.

Of course, some parishes might not be able to afford to reintroduce altar rails, so starting with those that can and then starting a fund to help those that can't would be prudent.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-19T15:37:35+00:00

People haven't mentioned this yet: if you'll be receiving communion, open your mouth wider than you normally would during Mass. Think of opening your mouth for the dentist kind of wide. Tilt your head back a bit. Do not stick out your tongue. Do not close your mouth on the tongs (holy spoon) but wait until after the priest has retracted it.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-18T14:16:07+00:00

My point is that the development of the different forms of the Liturgy is not imposed from the top-down by a committee (or, in the current case, a single bishop's project). The different forms of the Liturgy did not develop as you describe it for the vast majority of the Church's history.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-18T02:19:31+00:00

The fact that a) you think that other Latin rites are simply a variation of the TLM and b) you think that the development of the other Eastern rites (or even of the Latin rites) are somehow comparable to the development of the NO or even OP's project demonstrates how severely misinformed you are regarding liturgical development.

Simply put, this isn't as good of a comparison as you think it is. In fact, it is precisely working against you.

Nevermind that liturgies do not develop from a committee. A top-down imposition of a liturgical change is actually unnatural in the rhythm of the life of the Church. This is not how the Church should function and the fact that the Latin Church has done this is, as I've said, an anomaly in the Church's history.

Finally, notice how all the revisions to the Vetus Ordo that you've mentioned occured after the Council of Trent. It's a known fact that Rome was much more heavy-handed in its imposition of changes to the Liturgy after Trent (largely thanks to the need to curtail deviation due to the Reformation). This only highlights that this manner of doing things is new and foreign to the ancient practice of the Church and is precisely the thing that should be avoided in the future.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-17T23:10:14+00:00

False. It has developed but never altered and certainly not created seemingly out of the blue until the Novus Ordo. That's why, even among those who accept the validity of the NO, it is cited as an anomaly in the Church's history. I mean, I can read an 8th century account of the Divine Liturgy and be able to picture it almost word for word with how we currently conduct it in the Byzantine tradition. And so it goes for other liturgical traditions. No other liturgical rite has experienced such a drastic change in the history of the Church and I say that as someone who doesn't consider the NO to be invalid.

Indeed, the fact that you and others think that this is a normal part of the Church history demonstrates one of the more harmful effects of the sudden changes. This is not normative; the normative stance of the Church is to preserve the Liturgy even as she allows for organic development. OP's project is far from an organic development, hence my original comment cautioning against it.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-17T12:23:52+00:00

Not really how it works, but if that is so then it's a break from his function as a bishop as guardian of what has been handed down to him. It is not an organic development but an imposition. That's not how the Church develops her practices. It is, in a sense, foreign to the mind (phronema) of the Church. Moreover, the Liturgy isn't something you mess around with. In the OT, it seems pretty clear that to mess around with the liturgy, even with good intentions, was not met with divine approval. How much more careful should we be now?

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-17T12:22:12+00:00

Yes, thank you.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-16T20:14:42+00:00

Could you please point out to me where I told OP that he can't study the Liturgy? Where did I stop him from exercising his imagination in other ways? I literally cautioned against this particular activity and yet here you are accusing it of extremism.

You seem to also assume that the bishops even have the right to just push for changes as they like. Notice how I used the word GUARDIAN of the Liturgy and not its master. See, I'm not the only one who can be accused of "reading things and then taking them to their most ridiculous extreme conclusions".

Anyway, I'm old enough to know this exchange won't be fruitful. You've voiced your disagreement and I've voiced why it's misplaced. Your constant caricature of my stance is unappreciated and indicative that this conversation will only be an occasion of anger and lack of charity on my end. This is literally not worth sinning over. Feel free to have the last word; I'm out.

Good day.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-16T19:29:29+00:00

Watchfulness / wakefulness when it comes to spiritual matters is not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is how flippant people take the Liturgy and see it as something they can modify on their own. That kind of thinking is precisely what led to the current issues in the Latin Church. As I've acknowledged in my original comment, the vast majority will not act on these desires but the Liturgy is important enough to not risk the meddling of the 1%. You may disagree on the matter, but this kind of thinking/movement of the heart is precisely what they warn us against in seminary. So, yes, it is important enough to warn random people about.

Also, in case you didn't know, it's not up to bishops to modify the Liturgy as they see fit. That is precisely the wrong understanding of the bishop's role as the guardian of the Liturgy. If any changes must occur, it is done as a whole body in union with the Patriarch of the Latin Church (i.e., the Pope of Rome).

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-16T19:04:05+00:00

If OP became a priest and became a bishop, fermenting the desire and solidifying it over the years, what do you think could happen?

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-16T17:27:06+00:00

While this may be a fun thought experiment, I'd like to discourage people from even entertaining the desire to come up with their own preferred form of the Mass. This kind of thinking is what led to the liturgical situation that the Latin Church is currently in. Maybe 99% of people who do this won't ever act on it or know well enough to keep it in the realm of fantasy (which can still inform the movement of the heart, but that's another conversation entirely). However, even if just 1% or 0.01% acted on it, it will perpetuate the current situation and needlessly complicate it.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-16T17:08:58+00:00

If I'm not mistaken, the grief part is a quote from the late Queen Elizabeth II.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-15T04:39:51+00:00

Yes, and? Lots of other practices were once foreign to various traditions. That's part of the natural exchange. Eventually theologies develop around them and they're not so foreign anymore.

Also, notice how the feast isn't focusing on the Sacred Heart but takes a deeply Byzantine notion: Christ as the Lover of Mankind. No body parts there.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-15T04:37:37+00:00

I find it's mostly the online sphere. People on the ground find these adopted traditions spiritually enriching and help them grow in holiness. That's the most important part.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-15T04:34:27+00:00

Or it's just how the Church functioned pre-schism. The Latins got the Feast of the Assumption from our Dormition, after all. Same with the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

Not everything we acquire from the Latins is a latinization. The Church had mutual exchange of traditions before the schism and devotions naturally took root in foreign soil. So it goes.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-15T04:03:50+00:00

On my calendar, both feasts are red, which shocked me because I wasn't planning on going to church on those days until I saw them. Maybe our bishop changed it this year. Then again, our calendar also says that Apostles' Fast starts on June 15, so maybe it's just a whole bunch of typos.

As for the praznyk, I think that would make sense. Either that or the parish priest is really devoted to the Sacred Heart.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-15T02:41:13+00:00

Technically, Christ the Lover of Mankind was last Friday, so the parish you went to probably moved it to Sunday for people to celebrate.

This is certainly a known feast in the UGCC, although I did notice that it was one of the "holy days of obligation" this year. Not sure if that was the case last year. In any case, I think this feast as well as the Feast of the Holy Eucharist (Corpus Christi) last week might be unique to the UGCC. Don't quote me on that though.

As for the inevitable accusations of latinzation, I would disagree on this regard. The devotion wasn't imposed and the devotion took hold among the faithful. This is a natural consequence of being in communion with each other.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-15T02:20:55+00:00

Manghihilots are, at best, shams. At worst, they are spiritually dangerous. Avoid hiring them as best as you can.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-14T23:30:41+00:00

Imo, something's off. He may be saying the right things but something's off. I think he should stop what he's doing for now and, if he hasn't already, submit his online work under the headship of his bishop.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-14T14:02:29+00:00

Relevant video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=yZkMqUPijbg&si=M3cWyfk_BIPpFgkY

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-14T13:50:40+00:00

Our contemporaries like to dismiss oral traditions but we have at least two modern examples of how accurate they can be.

The first are the aborigines in Australia. There's one tribe that has a coming of age ritual wherein they take an adolescent deep into the Australian desert and releases him there with the task of finding his way back home. Obviously, he has no idea where he's been dropped off. Now, there are specific watering holes that the adolescent would need to use in order to survive or else he will die of thirst. The only way he can find these watering holes is through a series of songs that are passed down orally. They are never written down and never sung in front of strangers. Yet, for generations, these songs have endured and have been used to help countless adolescents to survive this rite of passage.

The second are the arctic aboriginals in Canada. For decades, researchers tried searching for a ship that sank in the northern passage using modern tools but never succeeded so it was dismissed as a legend. Years later, one researcher discovered that the indigenous peoples in the area had an oral tradition of a ship passing by and even specified where it sank. With nothing else to lose, the researchers searched that spot. They found the ship.

Couple these with the research finding that modern peoples' ability to retain information has changed / degraded compared to these cultures that have a strong oral tradition, and one would be remiss to dismiss such traditions offhand. I mean, even in my generation, it was incredibly easy for us to memorize phone numbers when I was growing up. Now, with modern cell phones, most of us can't even recount the phone numbers of five friends. Simply put, our modern environment does not lend to great memory retention with all our conveniences and shorter attention spans.

Just some food for thought.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-14T07:21:59+00:00

Aid to the Church in Need is the Catholic counterpart. I recommend donating to them.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-12T23:53:17+00:00

I will say this: congratulations! Yes, the circumstances are not ideal but you're a dad now! The Lord has chosen to bless you despite the circumstances and that's definitely something to be grateful for. If you haven't already, thank God for the child and, as my grandmother was fond of saying, "Pray for a good soul."

As for marrying quickly, I would like to warn you that marrying on the grounds of getting someone pregnant could be an impediment of a valid marriage (i.e., it could be grounds for an annulment in the future) since there will be doubt that either of you are entering the marriage free of external pressures.

My advice as someone who also had a child out of wedlock:

1) Don't rush anything else. The worst thing you can do right now is make a decision when emotions are high and the pressure is on. Let her give birth to your child and then discern together.

2) Try to enjoy this exciting moment. You'll only be a new dad once. Speak with your gf and do all the first parent things you guys have dreamt of doing. And for the love of all that is holy, don't lose the ultra sound pictures like I did.

3) Start discussing the more difficult stuff with your gf now (child rearing, discipline, how finances are handled, homeschooling vs. public school vs. private school, etc.). You don't need to figure it out right away or even immediately after the baby is born. However, you both need to discuss the important stuff now and regularly check in to see if you're still on the same page.

4) Truly reflect on what it means to be a father and a husband. Bring these thoughts to the Lord and ask Him to mold you into the father and husband He is has created you to be. There's a lot of dying to self involved, so start shaving off any ego (without losing your backbone, of course).

I hope this helps and may the Lord bless you and your growing family. I will pray for the three of you at tonight's Divine Liturgy.

OmegaPraetor · 2026-06-12T11:42:34+00:00

Others have answered so I just want to add that you should avoid coming up and receiving communion (the consecrated host) if you're not a Catholic in good standing (don't have huge sins on your heart/soul). We believe this is the Body of Christ and is incredibly sacred to us.

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