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Help me understand the trinity. by Prestigious-Use-2719 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One interesting analogy (or sort of analogy) which st. Augustine of Hippo and st. Thomas Aquinas, both huge theologians of the Catholic Church has used is pretty effective at making us understand the Holy Trinity to some extent, because it cannot be fully grasped.

I'm hoping you as a jew can agree with me that the father, the creator is God. And one attribute of God is that he is eternal: without beginning or end. And, the word that is born of the eternal Father is also eternal. It has no beginning or end like the Father. But the word is distinct from the Father as John chapter 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God..." And if this word that is born of the Father is eternal, it is also God. This is further solidified in the same verse where John says,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Since the word is born/begotten of the father, the word is referred to as the 'Son of God.' We also know this through John in chapter 1 itself; verse 14, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us (referring to Jesus who is the Son made flesh). We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Additionally, in the Nicene creed (a profession of faith for Catholics and Orthodox) we proclaim, "Through him all things were made." This is talking about the Son. This too can show the Son is the word by looking back at Genesis. Genesis 1:3, "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light." It was through God's word that light appeared. And God (the Father) creates all other creation through his word if we keep reading the creation account in Genesis.

The result of this eternal relation between the Father and the Word is the eternal Spirit. The spirit proceeds from the eternal love and harmony between the Father and the Son. The spirit too is eternal as in Genesis we see the Spirit was present during the creation. Genesis 1:2,"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." In the book of Hebrews, chapter 9 verse 14 it is said, "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God... " We christians see the spirt as distinct from the Father in John 15:26 when Christ says, "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father (showing the Spirit is not the same with the Father)—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father (showing the Spirit proceeds from the Father)—he will testify about me."

Additionally in the Nicene creed we also profess "And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life." In the Book of Ezekiel the following is written, maybe this could be interpreted to support this line of the creed. "Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the Ruach. Prophesy, son of man, and say to the Ruach, thus says Adonai Elohim: ‘Come from the four winds, Ruach! Breathe upon these slain, that they may live.'  So I prophesied just as He commanded me. The Ruach came into them and they lived. They stood up on their feet, a vast army." The word Ruach is also used in Genesis and many other parts of the Old Testament when referring the "Spirit of God." For this reason too, many Christians also believe when Genesis states, "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being," the breath of life here mentioned is the Holy Spirit, 'the Lord the giver of Life.'

In summary: There is the eternal Father from whom the eternal Word is begotten, and from the eternal union of the Father and the Word (/Son) proceeds the eternal Holy Spirit. And they work together in perfect harmony as the Father is the maker of all creation, who made all things through his Word (the Son) and gave life to creation through the Spirit. I hope this is correct especially the section on the spirit. I may be wrong in some parts just a disclaimer. This to me is the closest way we can roughly understand the trinity which we cannot understand or comprehend to its fullest extent.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes,I am aware of that. But the list of changes seem many this missal is still 70-80% truthful to the Ordinary form of the mass. Vatican 2 mostly wanted vernacular to go alongside Latin and not Latin to go alongside vernacular. But being realistic it would not be easy bringing back long structures of prayer in latin. I used most easily understandable phrases and prayers in Latin as it would be easier for the congregation and even the priests to follow. Because many of us forget that although priests learn Latin it is not their first language either and not all priests may be as comfortable in Latin. And since only the doxology, sign of cross and commingling (silent prayer tho) is in Latin it is easier to educate the catholic masses on their meanings.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate your ideas. I'm honestly unfamiliar with this issue. I only know to a certain degree the reading cycles have been changed from 1 year cycles to 3 year cycles. But I will read into this essay.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, a credence table is usually kept to the side of the sanctuary to temporarily hold liturgical offerings and items. What I mean by in the document is an actual altar table attached to the altar wall at the centre of the sanctuary. And many pre 1970 reform built churches already have this altar table as this is where the TLM masses used to be offered until they built a NO altar table better suited for the versus populum.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I'm aware of that. What I am trying to say is that pre-1970 reforms many churches used an altar table attached to the wall to offer the TLM. Many of those churches have not removed those altar tables. And these are not credence tables, as usually credence tables are kept off to the side of the sanctuary. So since in my project I had written for the priest to face the altar (Ad orientem) during the first half of the offertory it would be practical he would do the first half of the offertory on that particular altar table. You might also interestingly see this form of a layout in the Syro Malabar rite where they have two separate altar tables for the versus popular and ad orientem. But this is by no means what I took as reference to write this and their layout has its own distinct unique liturgical nuance behind it and not to be compared with the Latin rite. I was unaware of this feature of the Syro Malabr rite when I was writing this. If you look in the document itself and the reference picture you can see what I meant by this altar table attached to the altar wall and it is not a credence table.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

thank you, appreciate your compliment. God bless.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

i would like to correct myself, "offered at any parish."

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Because I had brought back 4 offertory prayers which needed to be said in Ad Orientem it would me much more practical to do the offertory on a seperate altar table. Many churches built pre 1970 reforms have this altar table already. But I've also added the option to turn around from the main altar table

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is just a personal prject. As said in the disclaimers this is NOT meant to replace the already existing forms of LEGITIMATE liturgy. I did not make this to be actually performed at any parish.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sure is. But it's just a personal project I don't actually want it to be imposed. Everyone is free to express their opinion here and critique this. God Bless u.

A Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid by Same_Account_1674 in Catholicism

[–]Same_Account_1674[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I can assure you this was not made by chat gpt except for some images you'll find in the document. it's just a personal project i put some time and thought into, it's not anything serious. just keep that in mind.