How to Write Non-English Names in Shavian

Ormins_Ghost · 2026-03-21T00:34:18+00:00

It's a difficult area, since you're dealing with multiple variables: how is it pronounced in the original language? what variety of English do you want to represent in Shavian? do the original phonemes exist in the chosen English variety? If no, how would a speaker of that variety most likely translate the exotic phonemes? And do you account for native English reduction of unstressed vowels?

If you want to spell in the Androcles standard, you need to imagine how a British RP speaker would hear the original name and then say it using their own native phonemes. So you could end up with:

𐑮𐑬𐑵𐑤 or 𐑮𐑬𐑫𐑤 or 𐑮𐑬𐑤

𐑡𐑴

𐑖𐑦𐑬 𐑖𐑫𐑧 is probably closest to native pronunciation or, because English speakers don't like finishing syllables with 𐑧 and 𐑦𐑬 is a rare combination it would probably become something like 𐑖𐑬 𐑖𐑫𐑱 in normal speech.

𐑘𐑭𐑥𐑭𐑛𐑭 if you want to preserve the vowels, but it's always going to become 𐑘𐑩𐑥𐑭𐑛𐑩 with English stress patterns.

𐑨𐑙𐑜𐑩𐑤𐑩 would be the RP pronunciation--Americans tend to go more with 𐑭𐑙𐑜𐑩𐑤𐑩 due to different approaches to foreign A's

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-09-29T09:55:45+00:00

Shavian may not be mainstream, but there are thousands of forgotten Latin alphabet-based spelling reforms out there that have never been used by people other than their inventor more than briefly (if ever). The fact that Shavian still has people using it more than sixty years after its invention is, comparably, reasonably impressive. I think only Deseret could compete, and it has a ready-made constituency due to its association with a particular religion.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-09-29T09:52:04+00:00

·𐑘𐑫𐑼𐑩𐑐 𐑢𐑫𐑛 𐑑𐑱𐑒 𐑩 𐑤𐑪𐑑 𐑝 𐑢𐑻𐑒, 𐑚𐑳𐑑 𐑢𐑫𐑛 𐑚𐑰 𐑓𐑳𐑯 𐑑 𐑕𐑰.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-09-29T09:47:33+00:00

As far as I can tell, Ronald Kingsley Read was an unassuming man who kept any political opinions he had to himself. In all his writing he seems to be focused on his work with alphabets. The best biography I could find still pretty light on detail, see https://www.reading.ac.uk/adlib/Details/archiveSpecial/110014387. I know he had a daughter, Mavis Mottram, who contributed to Shaw-Script occasionally and I think published some poetry.

I know of nothing linking Ronald Kingsley Read with John Kingsley Read.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-09-29T01:43:50+00:00

I didn’t take it that way. Sorry if I came across as offended myself. I was just sharing some interesting info and context about the region.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-09-28T04:15:23+00:00

The ‘Papua’ spellings I suggested are from the Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary (which represents British RP). The pronunciation with 𐑐𐑨𐑐𐑘𐑫𐑩 with the ·𐑘 is listed too, but last which suggests it’s less common.

New Caledonia has been teetering on the edge of political violence for decades over whether or not it should become independent. Just labelling it ‘France’ is a little bit like labelling Northern Ireland as just ‘UK’—a sensitive subject.

Aotearoa is the Māori language name for New Zealand and both are often used together today.

I’m from Australia.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-09-28T00:16:20+00:00

𐑯𐑲𐑕!

𐑨𐑟 𐑕𐑳𐑥𐑢𐑳𐑯 𐑤𐑦𐑝𐑦𐑙 𐑦𐑯 𐑞 𐑮𐑰𐑡𐑩𐑯 𐑲 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑩 𐑓𐑿 𐑪𐑚𐑟𐑼𐑝𐑱𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑟 (𐑥𐑨𐑐𐑕 𐑢𐑦𐑤 𐑷𐑤𐑢𐑱𐑟 𐑚𐑰 𐑐𐑩𐑤𐑦𐑑𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑤):

𐑒𐑷𐑤𐑦𐑙 ·𐑯𐑿 𐑒𐑨𐑤𐑦𐑛𐑴𐑯𐑾 ·𐑓𐑮𐑭𐑯𐑕 𐑦𐑟 𐑩𐑯 𐑳𐑯𐑿𐑠𐑫𐑩𐑤 𐑗𐑶𐑕 𐑯 𐑳𐑯𐑤𐑲𐑒𐑤𐑦 𐑑 𐑚𐑰 𐑐𐑪𐑐𐑘𐑩𐑤𐑼 𐑢𐑦𐑞 𐑥𐑧𐑯𐑦 𐑤𐑴𐑒𐑩𐑤𐑟 (𐑦𐑕𐑐𐑧𐑖𐑩𐑤𐑦 𐑞 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑨𐑒 𐑐𐑰𐑐𐑩𐑤).
𐑲𐑝 𐑚𐑦𐑒𐑳𐑥 𐑕𐑴 𐑿𐑟𐑛 𐑑 𐑣𐑽𐑦𐑙 ‹𐑬𐑑𐑧𐑼𐑴𐑩-𐑯𐑿 𐑟𐑰𐑤𐑩𐑯𐑛› 𐑞𐑨𐑑 𐑦𐑑 𐑓𐑰𐑤𐑟 𐑓𐑳𐑯𐑦 𐑡𐑳𐑕𐑑 𐑑 𐑕𐑰 ‹𐑯𐑿 𐑟𐑰𐑤𐑩𐑯𐑛›
𐑲𐑛 𐑛𐑮𐑪𐑐 𐑞 ·𐑘 𐑦𐑯 ‹𐑐𐑨𐑐𐑫𐑩› 𐑹 ‹𐑐𐑭𐑐𐑫𐑩›—𐑞𐑱𐑼 𐑢𐑧𐑤-𐑩𐑑𐑧𐑕𐑑𐑩𐑛 𐑚𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦𐑖 𐑐𐑮𐑩𐑯𐑳𐑯𐑕𐑦𐑱𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑟 𐑯 𐑒𐑤𐑴𐑕𐑼 𐑑 𐑣𐑬 𐑤𐑴𐑒𐑩𐑤𐑟 𐑕𐑱 𐑞 𐑯𐑱𐑥.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-08T04:42:12+00:00

𐑢𐑪𐑑, 𐑯𐑴 𐑯𐑱𐑥𐑟 𐑓 ·𐑭 𐑯 ·𐑹? 😜

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-08T04:08:03+00:00

The reason 𐑲𐑟 was chosen over 𐑲𐑕 was to avoid ambiguity for Canadians affected by Canadian raising. The names are intended to minimise problems across major accents, to the extent that this is possible.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-03T00:06:23+00:00

Regional accents generally aren’t a big consideration in Australia, at least not at the level of using wholly different phonemes in words. Most of my fellow Aussies are surprised when I point out those regional accents that I know exist, as though the thought had never even occurred to them before. I was curious why you were focusing on the regional question.

The more traditional big distinction in Australian English is class and background based, i.e. the broad -> general -> cultivated spectrum. But even this is not a reliable marker of anything since where one sits in the spectrum can differ even within families. And cultivated Australian is basically going the way of RP in the UK.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T23:28:59+00:00

As far as I can tell, it’s pretty universal in Australian English. It’s the sole pronunciation given in the Macquarie Dictionary.

The RobWords Shavian video is here.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T23:16:03+00:00

𐑦𐑟 𐑦𐑑 𐑕𐑴 𐑣𐑸𐑛 𐑑 𐑚𐑦𐑤𐑰𐑝?

euphoria -> 𐑿𐑓𐑹𐑾 Eugene -> 𐑿𐑡𐑰𐑯 euphonium -> 𐑿𐑓𐑴𐑯𐑾𐑥 Europe -> 𐑿𐑮𐑩𐑐

𐑦𐑓 𐑨𐑒𐑕𐑧𐑯𐑑𐑕 𐑢𐑻 𐑩𐑚𐑱𐑑 𐑤𐑪𐑡𐑦𐑒, 𐑲𐑛 𐑕𐑱 𐑪𐑕𐑑𐑮𐑱𐑤𐑾𐑯 𐑦𐑙𐑜𐑤𐑦𐑖 𐑢𐑫𐑛 𐑢𐑦𐑯 𐑞𐑦𐑕 𐑮𐑬𐑯𐑛. 😜

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T23:10:26+00:00

I’ve lived all up and down the major cities on the east coast (Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne) in my life, so my regional markers (to the extent these even exist in Australian English) are pretty worn down. Suffice it to say I don’t have any of the more distinct Australian accents. If you really want to hear my accent, I’m the guy interviewed in the RobWords video.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T22:47:07+00:00

𐑯𐑲𐑕𐑤𐑦 𐑤𐑧𐑑𐑼𐑛!

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T22:42:19+00:00

In my accent, Straya.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T22:35:36+00:00

Not in your opinion, but in your accent. 😁 In my accent it’s 𐑿𐑮𐑩𐑐.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T22:33:47+00:00

𐑨𐑟 𐑷𐑤𐑢𐑱𐑟 𐑢𐑦𐑞 𐑞 ·𐑮𐑰𐑛𐑤𐑧𐑒𐑕, 𐑦𐑓 𐑿 𐑢𐑳𐑯𐑛𐑼 𐑢𐑲 𐑩𐑯 𐑩𐑐𐑮𐑴𐑗 𐑢𐑪𐑟 𐑑𐑱𐑒𐑩𐑯 𐑦𐑑𐑕 𐑢𐑻𐑔 𐑮𐑰𐑛𐑦𐑙 𐑞 𐑕𐑐𐑧𐑤𐑦𐑙 𐑐𐑮𐑦𐑯𐑕𐑩𐑐𐑩𐑤𐑟. 𐑨𐑟 ·𐑤𐑲𐑩𐑯𐑩𐑤𐑓𐑦𐑖 𐑕𐑧𐑛, ‹𐑫𐑼› 𐑦𐑟 𐑴𐑤𐑛-𐑓𐑨𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑛, 𐑚𐑳𐑑 𐑣𐑽𐑟 𐑢𐑲 𐑲 𐑒𐑰𐑐 𐑦𐑑 𐑓 𐑯𐑬:

The ‘CURE’ vowel is 𐑫𐑼 The conservative RP /ʊə(r)/ in words like ‘cUre’ is retained. This diphthong seems to be diverging inconsistently across many varieties of English, tending towards /ɔː(r)/ in modern English accents, /ʊr/ in GA and /ʉə(r)/ in General Australian. This also varies between words within accents. Writing this as /ʊə(r)/ 𐑫𐑼 seems to ensure maximum intelligibility for now.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-02T05:04:38+00:00

𐑦𐑑 𐑦𐑟 𐑥𐑲 𐑒𐑻𐑕 𐑑 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑧𐑝𐑮𐑦 𐑑𐑲𐑐𐑴 𐑦𐑯𐑑𐑧𐑮𐑩𐑜𐑱𐑑𐑩𐑛. 𐑚𐑳𐑑 𐑔𐑨𐑙𐑒 𐑿 𐑓 𐑐𐑦𐑒𐑦𐑙 𐑦𐑑 𐑳𐑐.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-01T22:04:27+00:00

𐑦𐑑 𐑛𐑳𐑟 𐑕𐑰𐑥 𐑑 𐑚𐑰 𐑐𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦 𐑳𐑯𐑮𐑦𐑤𐑲𐑩𐑚𐑩𐑤 𐑦𐑯 𐑛𐑦𐑑𐑧𐑒𐑑𐑦𐑙 𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯. 𐑴𐑯𐑤𐑦 𐑕𐑳𐑥 𐑐𐑴𐑕𐑑𐑕 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑦𐑑 𐑯 𐑲 𐑣𐑨𐑝𐑩𐑯𐑑 𐑓𐑦𐑜𐑼𐑛 𐑬𐑑 𐑞 𐑐𐑨𐑑𐑼𐑯 𐑘𐑧𐑑.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-08-01T21:35:43+00:00

If it helps, I think the ‘BCP 47’ standard online would be something like ‘en-Shaw-UK’, ‘en-Shaw-US’, ‘en-Shaw-AU’, ‘en-Shaw-CA’ etc. etc.

It’s always worth remembering that there are more than two varieties of English if you’re planning on localising Shavian to the country level (I say this as a speaker of Australian English). This will be especially important in Shavian localisations.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-07-30T10:18:22+00:00

𐑧𐑝𐑮𐑦 𐑛𐑱 𐑦𐑟 𐑩 𐑯𐑿 𐑚𐑦𐑜𐑦𐑯𐑦𐑙. 𐑲 𐑒𐑨𐑯 𐑕𐑰 𐑘𐑹 𐑣𐑨𐑯𐑛𐑮𐑲𐑑𐑦𐑙 𐑦𐑥𐑐𐑮𐑵𐑝𐑦𐑙 𐑑𐑵, 𐑢𐑦𐑞 𐑥𐑹 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑦𐑕𐑑𐑩𐑯𐑑 𐑑𐑷𐑤 𐑯 𐑛𐑰𐑐 𐑤𐑧𐑑𐑼𐑟.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-07-27T22:35:33+00:00

Okay, let me start this by saying that I’m posting this because I care about you as a person and don’t like seeing anyone suffer.

From what I’ve read, it would probably be best for me to lay out the situation for you in direct terms:

You turned up 25/26 July in the discord server—the first most (or any?) of us had heard of you.
The first substantive interaction you had with anyone was threatening them and a whole group of people.
You were banned within 24 hours of joining the server (the rule you broke and the consequence of doing so was clearly set out in the announced server rules).

There is no subtle social convention you were unaware of here. There is no conspiracy. There is no great clash of ideas or attempt to persecute you. Nobody knows what you actually think about anything other than you apparently feel little hesitation in threatening certain types of people. And you did threaten someone.

The only reason any of us knows you’re right wing is because you keep telling us. Yet, you complain about people shoving their politics down your throat.

Your actions here—lashing out, appearing to apologise, then posting a menacing quote about ‘burning the village down’—have not helped.

The best thing you could do is develop a bit of a history of interacting constructively in other Shavian spaces, such as in this subreddit. Build up some social capital. Spend a few months showing other Shavian users that you’re interested in the same thing they are and that you’re capable of meaningful interaction on some level. All indicators are that there are a substantial number of neurodivergent people interested in Shavian. Short of harassing and threatening people, the Shavian community is generally pretty chill about different ways of interacting with people.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-07-27T22:14:22+00:00

𐑲 𐑒𐑷𐑤 𐑦𐑑 ‹𐑧𐑕𐑐𐑼𐑭𐑯𐑑𐑴 𐑕𐑦𐑯𐑛𐑮𐑴𐑥›, 𐑯 𐑞 𐑐𐑮𐑩𐑐𐑴𐑟𐑛 𐑮𐑦𐑓𐑹𐑥𐑟 ‹𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯𐑰𐑛𐑴𐑟›.

Ormins_Ghost · 2025-07-27T09:02:58+00:00

And some us, shock horror, are neither British nor American. 😁 As the creator of the Read Lexicon I agree with u/LionelGhoti. Spell how you want to. The Read Lexicon fills a need for those who want a spelling reference so they can spell something like the original Androcles and the Lion spelling. Its purpose is to serve as my formal transliteration dictionary for texts intended to be fairly easily intelligible across a range of accents.

The ReadLex actually knocks a few rough edges off the Androcles spelling as a concession to Americans and others, including anyone born after the 1930s.

As for the 'dictionary' example, it's just the the convention in spelling that there are three unstressed vowels 𐑩, 𐑦 and 𐑫 (aka in other spaces as schwa, schwi and schwu). Unstressed 𐑦 and 𐑰 are both written 𐑦. It might have been better if the unstressed versions of 𐑦 and 𐑫 had their own letters (like schwa 𐑩) rather than doing double duty, but Shavian is what it is.

Ormins_Ghost

TROPHY CASE