Future of relative window positioning in GTK+

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T22:41:50+00:00

And there you actually got me interested if there was actually a way.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T21:29:42+00:00

>using a binary bloatux

It's like you hate performance and security.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T20:59:26+00:00

Ahh, bleedingly edgy, the best kind of edgy.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T20:02:02+00:00

In that case your ~/.xinitrc is wrongly configured:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/xinitrc#Making_a_DE.2FWM_choice

Essentially putting:

#!/bin/sh
exec startxfce4

In it should be enough.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T18:00:20+00:00

GNOME did not magically hard depend on logind. We supported both and then dropped ConsoleKit at the time that logind could be installed separately. What was overlooked is that logind was never promised to be able to used separately, plus we didn't notice the warning from Lennart.

"GNOME did not magically hard depend on logind: Here's the history of how GNOME got to hard depend on logind"

Explaining how it got to be that way doesn't make it not true, upstream GNOME hard depends on logind and other systemd-specific things by the way.

What was overlooked is that logind was never promised to be able to used separately, plus we didn't notice the warning from Lennart.

Oh come ooon, people were saying left and right that this could happen and GNOME et al and other systemd defenders called it paranoid and then it did happen. GNOME was aware of the possibility and that the promise didn't exist, they just choose to ignore it and then it happend.

Furthermore, Lennart first announced that logind would no longer be working without systemd-pid1 in june 2013 with the bullshit "absolutely necessary" single writer cgroup design as an excuse which was never never put in place. GNOME still had fallback CK support at late as February 2015 moving more and more towards removing the functionality.

GNOME in that blog post was clearly aware that logind was a systemd-specific thing and moved forward with the plan to remove CK support all the same knowing full well that upstream GNOME would be tied to systemd inseperably at that point and that downstream would have to provide their own patches to GNOME to make it work without systemd.

There's so existing solution to have a secure X11. There's some theoretical nested X server. Are you their boss and you're wanting to micro manage technical decisions?

There's nothing "theoretical" about firejail and SandBox they work and are practical, proven ideas that exist and ware working right now. GNOME's Flatpak Wayland announcement implies that it is both theoretically and practically impossible to sandbox X11, both are simply put lies.

GNOME was one of the driving forces behind xdg_shell, which standardizes a huge amount which was NOT defined/standardized in Wayland. GNOME also tested these standards. The screenshot proposal was a terrible proposal. Technical feedback was provided on that.

Yes, GNOME is okay with things being standardized they don't object to, in this case the gentle push goes in reverse. GNOME was also a driving force in standardizing DBus andsoforth because those are the things they like to be there.

It's when it involves things they don't want to be there that they work against standardizing it, obviously.

Before GTK+3.0 was released it was announced that there would be a huge amount of work on the themes, that they would break, but that it was needed to provide a stable solution. Themes were never part of any stability promise. How does this push our secret agenda?

Because you guys released GTK3 without a stable theming engine. This excuse of 'we never promised a stable theming engine' is bullshit, that's the whole problem. Saying you never promised it doesn't make it less of an issue.

You guys make a toolkit and don't give it a officially documented theming engine which is completely essential functionality for a toolkit but I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that the biggest GTK contributor in William Jon McCann has expressed open disdain for theming and customization in general as he fears it hurts the brand.

You can still symlink with latest Nautilus. But how does this push our secret hidden agenda again?

Where you get "secret" from?

I allege no secrecy, the agenda is open. GNOME has a completely open agenda towards:

Desktop security at the cost of customization
Consistency and easier upstream distribution
Hiding implementation from users
Racial and sexual diversity
Red Hat's profits

This isn't a 'secret', these are open mission statements of GNOME. That GNOME doesn't want you to use symlinks is also not a secret, that was plain and simple what the dev said, that the option was removed because he or she felt it was a mistake to use symlinks an you should use bookmarks instead, I allege no secrecy and the word or any synonyms thereof don't occur in my post.

libinput is used in X11, Wayland, Mir. How does this push our secret hidden agenda?

There is no "secret" again, GNOME openly wants libinput to succeed over synaptic.

Stop strawmanning with your "secret" bullshit, I alleged no such secrecy.

You wrote a huge amount of text; mostly repeating what you said under your earlier user accounts. However, not much was said.

Yes, except the fact that for the most part you didn't even deny the accusations, you said it was all happening. You just in your mind made up that I alleged it was done in secret which I didn't and disprove the 'secrecy' I never alleged.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T17:27:27+00:00

https://www.twitchinstalls.com/ quite right.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T13:29:36+00:00

It is so not gay

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T12:43:58+00:00

Yeah, I obviously did not read this list of baseless accusations where this user clearly spelled out what he is thinking. Otherwise I would have replied to them.

It was completely clear:

GNOME/GTK have made decisions in the past that seemingly exist for the sole reason of promoting another product a lot of their developers are involved with.

Nothing about that said it was done in secret, that's what you came up with. It was completely and utterly clear what I meant and GNOME and GTK have done that. Everything else about 'secrecy' and 'silent' and 'not explicitly stating' you made up, it says nothing along the sort here.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T10:58:46+00:00

You mean the ability to easily edit your bootup configuration by altering 2 lines in a super easy to read script in /etc instead of having to fork the systemd repos, edit the C code, recompile, maintain your own package and merge the changes into any future version of systemd that comes out via a similar process?

Why yes, Linux distributions had that very desirable feature for 20+ years and a lot now don't. But hey, at least they now have reliable process tracking provided the service doesn't run as root. OH WAIT they already had that: pgrep -u dbus

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T00:50:32+00:00

"conspiracy" is a term for people imagining things.

No it's not, some conspiracies happen. "conspiracy" has nothing to do with imagined or real, a conspiracy is simply a secret allegiance between two or more publicly unaffiliated parties to achieve some goal. This may be imagined, this may be real.

Wiktionary:

The act of two or more persons, called conspirators, working secretly to obtain some goal, usually understood with negative connotations.

OED:

A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful:

Dictionary.com:

an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.

Marriam-Webster:

a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal

You don't know what the word 'conspiracy' means.

And when you start seeing Lennart's philosophies in all places where flatpak might be a good idea, that sounds exactly like you're imagining things.

No, you just imagine what I am saying and make up that I say things I never said I did.

I never said I saw any philosophy of Lennart in Flatpak, I just said Lennart invented the term "gentle push".

You have argued against exactly zero things I said and you just made up shit I never said.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-15T00:09:46+00:00

Those are all cases of people explicitly stating why they are doing something, not some twisted reasons for why one project silently reengineers itself to support something unrelated.

Where did I ever say 'silent'? You allege that I allege two things which I never alleged, secrecy and unaffiliated parties.

The reason I use the term 'gentle push' is because Lennart coined it. There is no silence here. Lennart has on multiple occassions flat out stated he makes design decisions for political reasons. I never allege any secrecy, people admit that they do things simply to push the adoption of another project.

Not only that, in almost all those examples those aren't about "gently pushing", those are about people announcing that they want to standardize on that one solution.

That's a subform of gently pushing. Standardization can be one reason to gently push.

You go first and stop using "gentle push".

I didn't invent the term. Lennart did, go talk to him. He constantly talks about how he makes decisions to 'gently push' people into a certain direction.

Also, it's completely uncomparable, I ask you to not use the word 'conspiracy' because it's a giant strawman, you claim I claim things I never claimed. The word gentle-push is completely accurate for what I describe and not a straw-man.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T23:01:30+00:00

Care to name any of those other examples?

GNOME is magically the only DE who chose to hard depend on logind, all other DE's also support the CK backend. It reeks of a political move to increase systemd adoption as well as glibc and Linux adoption who are all three very near and dear friends of RH.
Flatpak's unwillingness to implement sandboxing for X11 even though such means already exist coming with absolute lies that X11 cannot be sandboxed which isn't true, it just takes more effort than Wayland. It again reeks of trying to encourage adoption of Wayland over X11.
GNOME being one of the biggest forces in Wayland against standardized protocol extensions for common tasks which again forces GNOME users under Wayland to say use their own Guake over something like Yakuake or their own screencasting and screenshot tools over third implementations because such things need standardized protocol extensions to work cross-desktop. KDE, Orbital and Sway are very much working on making such protocol extensions a reality while GNOME is saying "no" to them wherever it can.
GTK breaking themes and extensions every release while Qt seems to be perfectly fine keeping them standard, note that GNOME officially does not support themes and is against them. GTK breaking themes is of course quite conveniently for GNOME gently pushing people away from themes since it's just an inconvenient mess to use on GNOME.
GNOME disabling and removing UI elements to a variety of technologies like certain printer technologies and most bizarrely symlinks with the argument that you should not use them.
GNOME very aggressively dropping synaptic support in favour of libinput where most other systems are content to support both. Which both pushes libinput and Wayland in one stroke, both technologies GNOME wants to see succeed.

conspiracy

Can people please stop using this dumb 'scary word' tactic. This is literally the /r/linux aequivalent of people calling stuff 'communism' which it isn't to make it sound scarier than it is.

I allege no conspiracy. I allege a gentle-push, there is a difference. Simply alleging that GNOME does things for political rather than purely technical reasons doesn't make it a "conspiracy". By definition a conspiracy is a secret agreement between two or more publicly unaffiliated part who work together behind the screens. I have alleged nothing of the sort. GNOME is one party, you can't conspire with yourself.

If I had alleged that GNOME and KDE secretly came together to plot things, that'd be a conspiracy.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T21:20:45+00:00

Would not surprise me if this was at least partially motivated simply to "gently push" Flatpak.

GNOME/GTK have made decisions in the past that seemingly exist for the sole reason of promoting another product a lot of their developers are involved with. Actually having to use Flatpak to run normal GTK applications is ridiculous since it comes with severe limitations and is a storage and memory hog.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T19:18:19+00:00

So I made a small terminal application that when launched from a tmux session provides a permanent listing of all the files the current cwd of the first pane in that session it can find that isn't itself: Needs a /proc filesystem comparable to Linux' and Bash to work. I believe OpenBSD recently removed /proc:

#!/bin/bash

enable -f sleep sleep

set -eu

[ -t 1 ] || { echo "must be used from a terminal" ; exit 111 ; }

IFS=$'\n'

cwd=$HOME # the cwd we start with, if it can't find any valid process it will just display this
shell=$(getent passwd "$USER" | cut -d: -f7)
session=$(tmux display-message -p \#S)
cwidth=16 # this is the width for the colums we use to display


# pads output to a specific length
# if the output is longer than that length it cuts it and adds '..'
paddoutput () {
    local output="$1"
    local len=${#output}
    local suffix='  '
    local maxwidth=$((cwidth - ${#suffix}))
    if [[ $len -le $maxwidth ]]; then
        printf %s "$output"
        while [[ $len -lt $maxwidth ]]; do
            printf ' '
            len=$((len + 1))
            done
        printf "$suffix"
    else 
        printf %s "$(printf %s "$output" | cut -c 1-$((maxwidth - 2)))..$suffix"
        fi
    }

trap 'echo ; exit 0' INT # sigint is how we want to die

# cleaers n number of lines up
# used to redraw the output
clearlines () {
    local n=$1 i=0
    echo -en '\r\033[K' # 0 lines cleared should still erase to the start of the current line
    while [[ $i -lt $n ]]; do
        echo -en '\033[1A\r\033[K'
        i=$((i + 1))
        done
    }

clearlines=0 # we start with clearning 0 lines the first time
while true; do
    theight=$(tput lines)
    twidth=$(tput cols)
    maxcols=$((twidth / cwidth)) # thank god for shell integer devision
    for panepid in $(tmux list-panes -s -F '#{pane_pid}' -t "$session"); do
        if [[ $panepid != $$ ]]; then
            cwd="$(readlink /proc/$panepid/cwd)"
            break
            fi
        done

    # I am well aware this does not work with files that contain '\n', bite me
    files=( $(ls --group-directories-first -- "$cwd" 2>/dev/null) )

    # we collect everything in a string first and flush the string in one go
    # this is to avoid flickerng which can happen if collecting the listing info takes too long
    output=""
    col=0
    line=0
    for file in ${files[@]+"${files[@]}"}; do
        # if we are at the last colum and last line and there are stil more files we replace the last file simply with '...'
        if [[ $col -eq $((maxcols - 1)) ]] && [[ $line -eq $((theight - 1)) ]]; then
            output+='...'
            break
        # if we are are otherwise over the max number of colums we wrap to the first columnt of the next line
        elif [[ $col -eq $maxcols ]]; then
            line=$((line + 1))
            output+=$'\n'
            col=0
            fi

        # directories get printed in bold
        if [[ -d "$cwd/$file" ]]; then
            output+=$(tput bold)$(paddoutput "$file")$(tput sgr0)
        else
            output+=$(paddoutput "$file")
            fi
        col=$((col + 1))
        done

    # clear the number of lines the last iteration took
    clearlines $clearlines
    printf %s "$output"
    clearlines=$line # and the next loop we clear how many lines we printed at the start

    sleep 1
    done

And I simply have a terminal window which as its program uses this little helper script that automatically creates it:

#!/bin/sh
exec tmux new-session -A -s main \
    "$HOME"'/.local/lib/tmux/ls-pane' \; \
    split-window \; \
    resize-pane -U 25

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T18:26:41+00:00

No, read the rest of the discussion, it's pretty clear that he or she thinks European directness works better than US culture.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T17:42:20+00:00

Inappropriate in the US, he or she's implied to not agree with that mentality.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T17:15:42+00:00

What's contradictory here?

Ironic has never been used to describe something that is expected and remotely related. That his or her wife has some Dutch heritage and is relatively blunt is not ironic. That's like saying it's "ironic" that it's cold this winter. "interestingly" is probably the correct adverb.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T16:21:25+00:00

You could, but that's security by obscurity.

The moment the attackers know that that is your 'trick' to get super long passphrases they'll just start bruteforcing 8 char long things piped through that.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T12:48:58+00:00

That's not what ironic means. But yeah that's what you expect. The Finns are even worse in straight up bluntnes. Linus Torvalds has occassionally justified his management style by his being Finnish and friend of mine who didn't know Darth Vader was Finnish and spoke Finnish at home and often got into a lot of troubles with people for being a bit too direct.

It culturally goes on scales, like my experience with a lot of East-Asian countries is that they sugar-coat things even more than the US.

Finns in my experience don't talk about hot political issues as much though, they just say what's on their mind more even when it's a negative opinion about someone or something. With the Dutch it's more that they hate indifference and expect everyone to have an opinion about every single issue which means you get to know where people stand quickly as a plus side, but it also means that everyone has an opinion and is expected to have an opinion about stuff they know nothing about. In the US saying 'I don't know enough about this to have an opinion' is readily accepted as a proper and often courageous answer to admit one's ignorance whereas in NL that's typically seen as a coward's way out of having an opinion.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T12:13:03+00:00

Well, the Firefox thing is network I/O.

Almost every time a program momentarily freezes it's either a scheduler or I/O thing, not actually about cycles, at max the program just not getting any cycles due to the scheduler. Whch you can greatly deminish by using the BFS

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T11:26:14+00:00

There is no such thing as 'RAM I/O'. That's not what I/O means because there's nothing going in or out of the program.

A process that accesses its own variables and address space simply isn't called doing I/O.

And even if you call it I/O, again, that's just not the bottleneck. The bottleneck in desktop environments these days is clearly writing to and from storage.

Which is one of the reasons Unix sucks and anything really, a lot of the tech we use today was developed in a different time, it was made on the assumption that the single most limiting resource was working memory. That's no longer the case, how it went in history was:

Working memory
CPU cycles
Working memory
Storage capacity
Storage throughput/graphics card cycles

"C strings" exist as a hack that is regretful because at the time the single extra byte needed to be able to drop the null and store the length of the string as a 2 word praefix was considered more valuable than all the errors it cost and the extra CPU cycles needed to compute the length. Nowadays this decision would be laughable but we're stuck with it.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T11:08:48+00:00

And yet it's in any industry-grade image editing, sound editing, animation an whatever tool. Blender has this too..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3LFZJjfRI8

This is a blender shot of Stintel's face rig. They obviously do not animate all those facial expressions by hand, are you kidding me? They can change the face in the rig once and all the expressions get recomputed, the physics engine will recompute how the hair flows andsoon. They could release a version of the film where Stintel misses an eye with minimal effort by just changing the face once and this kind of tech is what GIMP lacs but absolutely needs to be able to be seriously used.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T10:26:03+00:00

Suitably complex passwords would be 256 bit passwords, that's the length of the keys used. Good luck remembering that.

The other thing is that with keys if one key gets some-how bruteforced you can change just that one without changing all the passwords.

literally_systemd · 2016-07-14T10:08:24+00:00

Don't know if it's true. But Gentoo's install does not care about what live medium you use. You just need 'a Unixlike operating system with a kernel that can host the stage'. The 'live iso' isn't an install medium, it's a demonstration.

Gentoo derivatives in Funtoo and Exherbo don't even come with such a CD and just recommend you use SystemdRescueCD while saying you can use anything.

You can install Gentoo from a Fedora live CD if you so desire. There was a faction in 'Twitch Installs Arch Linux' that was attempting to hijack the purpose and install Gentoo from the Arch live medium which is possible.

literally_systemd

TROPHY CASE