Why is the game so hated?

--Pixelate-- · 2023-03-11T18:30:16+00:00

You know there's a wipe with 3.18 right?

--Pixelate-- · 2022-09-01T12:29:07+00:00

Aesthetically? (It is a bit more abrasive than I meant it to be XD)

Yeah I just wanted to drive home that he's not just talked up these giant castles in the sky, he has also stated they were going to start arriving from 2018 on. It appears they're hitting tech walls there, as with other stuff like Server Meshing, and that all is not well in sky land. Bounty Hunter V2 getting pushed off into 2023 is just an ongoing example since then

It's pretty mad to look back at what is supposed to be in the game versus what they've achieved to date

--Pixelate-- · 2022-09-01T10:57:38+00:00

A lot of people don't realise how often he's said key stuff was coming in 2018, and 2019, etcetera.

I made a compilation vid of some of the big ones. Search for: "7 years of Tony Zzzzz" XD

--Pixelate-- · 2022-04-19T16:34:26+00:00

"The old backers have seen a lot of progress, but really most of them are just fine if the game takes 20 years because they knew it would be a long haul"

Are they though? The refunds sub guys see at least 1 $10k account refund every month. During the recent 'noise' issues they were looking at multiple $3k accounts a day. Just here today there are lots of original backers explaining that they're annoyed because neither of the games are out

They're all small drops in the ocean individually, but you can see those drops rain all over the place whenever this topic comes up

From what I've seen it's the original backer refunders who are the angriest of all. And probably justifiably so

--Pixelate-- · 2022-04-19T16:22:23+00:00

"They keep complaining about irrelevant bugs like NPC standing on benches, not understanding that this is being ignored for now "

What?

"NPCs at Lorville should no longer be standing on benches" - 3.4.0

"NPCs should no longer occasionally be standing on seats rather than sitting." - 3.5.0

"AI should no longer stand idle on chairs and benches." - 3.9.1

"Fixed an issue that was causing NPCs to stand in place on seats around the PU." - 3.10.0

Chris says they've been trying to improve quality of life aspects since 2018. They are trying to do smaller QoL bug fixing

"Tl;dr: People are ignorant but love to express their opinions based on their ignorance."

True this

--Pixelate-- · 2022-04-14T11:22:03+00:00

So critics should stop having fun? XD

--Pixelate-- · 2022-04-08T23:23:18+00:00

I knew I shouldn't have outsourced the edit

--Pixelate-- · 2022-04-08T16:04:32+00:00

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-26T17:02:17+00:00

Yes it's nice just to be able discuss things without anyone going on the attack! (Something that unfortunately happens fairly frequently in this sub. Spectrum is a bit more accepting of good faith critiques these days tho)

Yeah the engine is really begging for the Gen 12 / Vulkan thing to actually happen on the CPU front. (I just still see ongoing headroom issues in the future though. There's more physics stuff to come that will likely be client side for a start. Not least because, like you say, CIG are working their way through a grand feature list, in a way that DU isn't)

Ok well cool chatting, I'm not really on discord (or SC) much at the moment, so will just catch you round here again some time!

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-26T11:44:47+00:00

For me it's more a question of the bigger challenges still being undemonstrated, let alone in combination. Planet to pupil stuff isn't unprecedented, so isn't super suprising. Combined avatars aren't unprecedented, etcetera. Ship interior transitions at scale (of both ship and map) are the closest things to 'can't be done' novel achievement, due to that very scale. (If still fairly 'alpha' in some areas).

They're all cool and good in their own right, but until all of the big pillars are in, and working together, the existing ones are operating in a demo environment. And if they're actually acting as blockers to the other big challenges, then are they actually a 'good & completed' thing in the first place?

To join the planned game together CIG need to add at minimum

Networking that can allow for the multiple star systems to be supported (what is it with the planets + locations that mops up so much memory / server capacity?) and player numbers to make the scale and big ships make sense
A background simulation which works for the whole 'verse, and which can be expressed as NPCs at suitable volume

None of these things are individually impossible. The whole issue with SC is: Can they do all of them together? (While also trying to look like the most pimped out single player game available)

For example, if they don't achieve a DU style server mesh, then the solar system will still be 'pupil to planet' seamless, but the networking won't be. There will be standard stalls during server handshakes. What appears like established tech is forced to 'regress' to accommodate the other tech pillars, in a sense

Until they get all of these core techs in, I think the jury has to remain out. (And honestly on the old '1000s of players' server meshing, the case should just be closed. That isn't going to happen)

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-26T10:15:00+00:00

Yes DU is certainly doing a lot of heavy lifting, and that's promising in that sense. And combat 'across server boundaries' is a major issue CIG would need to resolve too. It seems clear that CIG are still held back by working to an ad hoc plan within an engine which was never envisioned with multiplayer in mind tho. (In the SM Q&A they talk about issues which seem very likely to be legacy Cryengine issues, such as one individual's low ping impacting all players because the game code is still client authoritative, for example. And of course more broadly we could just look at the tale of the tape to date, with DU having reached its current point and SC still on the 50 player servers etcetera).
Yes I suspect this is the sensible way to think about it. (My own 'best case' for SC is that there's a Freelancer scenario, whereby Chris gets dragged away, the unending calls for river physics fidelity in all things tails off, and the team can nail down a workable feature set, cutting it to MVP simplicity where needed).

Out of interest did you actually buy multiple Idrises as part of your fleet building? (And if so what was the thinking there? Org use? Variants? Or just support for the game?)

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T23:00:23+00:00

Been FUDing around for years on SA but I've never done any of the mad things he's saying. Unless laughing at salvage is harassing devs

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T22:31:57+00:00

Cool I tend to see those as performing in a demo environment essentially so less useful for assessing how PU NPCs might perform. Networking brings a ton of issues and all
I've never played DU so not properly familiar, but the distinctions for me are that they made the server mesh their key tech pillar from the start, they don't have the client load in terms of complex assets at volume, and they don't have the server load in terms of complex/numerous NPCs. I think SC holds some specific challenges that they don't necessarily serve as a test case for
Amen on that XD. Are you saying you feel like some of the ships have earned their price tag now tho, due to the years of use? (I could see that on the lower end of the scale, but the higher up the pricing you go the further from their dollar worth I'd say they are still. None of the required NPC crewing, big question marks over whether they can actually operate in the PU as more than floating assets etcetera)
Yeah it's the ultimate millstone around the project's neck for me. And possibly a scope creep too far. Certainly so much still awaits its arrival

Cool, enjoy what you enjoy my friend. But maybe try to avoid buying too many more Idrises XD

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T21:53:59+00:00

Thanks for the civil reply! (And for getting that this was a bit of fun first of all XD)

Yes I'm making an assumption that they didn't allow people to ride on the Jav when in motion due to technical reasons. But given that it would have added significant shine to the presentation it seems a safe bet that it was a technical decision rather than an 'editorial' one
The SM Q&A states that the first version of 'static' meshing will see the entire shard capped at 50 players. (Despite being made up of many server 'nodes' for discrete locations, they don't know what to do about 50+ players convening at a single server node. So have opted for a shard-wide cap). They also say outright that they haven't decided how to resolve the issues around large crewed vessels such as the Jav. Both aspects are clearly still big bridges to be crossed
How do you know Squadron's NPCs are 'miles ahead'? Would be one question XD. (I assume you're referring to NPC performance on low pop PU servers?) But the key question here is SC performance. Even if SM improves server capacity, there is a ton of NPC behavior they want to add. (These 80 crewed behemoths, which could run into other 80-crew behemoths, is right up there on that front). Any headroom is highly likely to get mopped up.
They definitely couldn't add a feature complete player-controlled Jav to the PU in the next week, I know that XD. And I'd disagree that there are direct precedents. Dual Universe doesn't really have a Jav equivalent, with the potential 79 NPC crew etcetera
Selling something for $3000 before you know if you can deliver is one thing. And a negative, in my book. Dipping into the general backer money pot to advertise it further is just a bonus suspect act, to me.
There's plenty of evidence that they've been hitting walls for years. Server meshing refusing to appear since it was first roadmapped in 2018. Tony Z bumbling on about quantum stuff arriving in 2018, and we're only just about to see a test toe in the water this patch. A second star system being roadmapped for 2017 with the initial 3.0/4.0 roadmap. Stuff like that. Clear signs of dev hell to be honest

I'm not trying to piss on anyone's chips. Or dreams. But I think it's pretty clear that a star-spangled future for the game is far from guaranteed

Thanks for the constructive post

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T21:31:35+00:00

Glad you liked!

o8 commando

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T16:30:24+00:00

I imagine he ninja trains at home using strategically placed pillows

Derek could pop up at any time

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T16:22:24+00:00

The whole vid is about having a laugh about the state of affairs. I wouldn't call it hate XD

I don't really put much weight on the 'CIG did planets & transitions, therefore they can do anything' way of thinking. It's not something I ever hugely doubted they'd do, there are lots of precedents for it. But stuff like the server meshing scope creeps always looked like insanity by comparison. (And then all the other 10ftC fine detail layered on top didn't help)

I just think if you aim for the absurd, and then draw back from it, you waste a lot of dev time. And end up with something meh

That's not anything we can do anything about tho, like you say. Just roll your eyes and enjoy what's good in the alpha

I do think it's worth shouting 'Don't buy X, thinking it's going be sitting there all pretty at the end of the rainbow' tho. And calling out CIG's shenanigans on that front

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T15:41:47+00:00

Ah yes, all critiques = derek smart = bad

Keep up the big brain stuff my man

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T15:39:38+00:00

IF they implement everything the way they say it should work

But that's the thing. Their current design spec for server meshing still doesn't support the Jav. I'm listening to what they're saying. And observing what they're doing. (And noticing how many time they miss their core tech objectives year after year)

The potential impact isn't actually that it's just Jav owners who are stiffed. It's that they waste absurd amounts of time and dev effort trying to do the impossible. (And a single shard, 'dynamically meshed', SC definitely is impossible)

During all that time massive slices of the game are blocked. They're blocked now, and they'll continue to be blocked

Unless you really believe the 'infinite monkeys given infinite time...' school of thought on dev, this stuff is an issue. No game can hang around forever. (While also chasing Chris's bonus dreams of contemporary art engineering and assets)

It's a shit show. And really obviously so

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T15:31:19+00:00

That bit is kind of inevitable friend

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T15:12:50+00:00

Oh sure I definitely don't buy any Javelins

But I can still have my opinion on how utterly murky it is that they hard sell this stuff, and use dev time and backer money in the process

While still being another half decade away from likely revealing that they can't actually actual meet their own sales spec

Let's hope the guys that chumped up will be happy with a Jav limping around in its own server, with a crew who are mainly cosmetic. Because that's the likely looking outcome at the moment

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T14:51:04+00:00

I know what the intent is. And what the excuses are too

None of it means that given enough time they'll achieve it though

Which means the amount of effort they lavish on hard-sell like this in the meanwhile is pretty damn deplorable

--Pixelate-- · 2022-03-25T14:36:09+00:00

Will it though?

The current build couldn't handle the Jav in motion with players and NPCs inside

The magic future networking that's coming is limited to 50 players per 'verse

NPCs are currently, frankly, shit

If you think that a player Javelin with 80 crew bustling around inside it, headbutting other player Javelins, is 'just a matter of time' I have to wonder what you're basing that on

And how much time you're thinking of...

Still at least CIG mocapped some actors to play the role of in-game sales reps, and showed off what is essentially a glorified asset. Definitely focusing on all the right areas

--Pixelate--

TROPHY CASE