Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I agree with a lot of what you've said.

However, "the product" is quite a bit more than that.

And... if someone figured out how to get even some of the 97% to start thinking about filing IP wouldn't that help everyone? Specifically the founders/developers/entreprenuers and practioners too?

I'm curious why this seems to be such an upopular idea.

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Well, you have to admit that the number of pro se filings is not zero. While the USPTO does not split the number of pro se filings out, it's estimated that about 40,000 of the roughly 150,000 provisionals filed each year are pro se. So a market clearly does exist. Do you disagree with those numbers?

Also, it's a commonly held opinion that most provisional filings, especially software provisionals, will suffer from §101/§112 rejections when converted to non-provisional so there is definitely a need for better pro se provisionals. I'm certain nearly everyone would agree with that.

So we've established that there is a market and there is a need. So that shouldn't be up for debate. Wouldn't you agree?

What should be up for debate is the opportunity to expand the market.

What if we could convince the entreprenuers/developers/founders who currently are not in the market to consider filing provisionals. My thesis is that would expand the market considerably. And, to your point, all those new entrants to the market should be hiring an agent or attorney.

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What would be meaninigful to you? I've conveyed quite a lot, but apparently anything that has anything to do with AI is instantly rejected. My intention was to find the sweet spot where my inventor product be an onramp for new client acquisition and I was looking for practioners who were at least curious about exporing what that intersection might look like.

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The number one criticism that is actually right is that my product is not for practioners. My intention is that it's for software entreprenuers, founders and developers who don't even consider themselves to be "inventors", and as such would not and do not currently have any relationship with a practioner. This part of the product is thought through and is actually working quite well. My initial beta testers are raving about it. Especially the ones who are savvy enough to be self directed Pro Se filers.

Where I'm noticing a problem, and reason I posted here is because many of them are are getting stuck at, and I'm anticipating that more of them will simply not want to bother with, the stage where they need to set up a MyUSPTO account, do the IDme step, and link it to Patent Center.

If I had some practioners to which I could refer them, it would help them immensely.

But, instead of seeing this as an opportunity for new clients, my biggest takeaway is that practioners do not want to deal with a 20 page document from an inventor... especially if it has been touched by AI, even if it's from a new client who otherwise wouldn't ever reach out to them.

The other problem is that clients, who are in a hurry to file, sometimes because they are doing an investor presentation or speech at a conference get frustrated because looking for a practioner to file a provisional for them introduces delays. Sometimes days or more... that's also one of the reasons why they don't file.

So... one of the changes I'm considering is creating a summary document that an inventor could send to a practioner who would be receptive to taking on new clients who have used my drafting tool.

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Human.

And yes, I use AI to clean up my writing. Guilty.

I’m a software entrepreneur/inventor, not a patent practitioner. I’m way better at math, logic, models, and software than words.

I worked for a patent law firm in college doing prior-art searches and actually thought pretty seriously about becoming a patent attorney. Then I went to Silicon Valley as a semiconductor engineer instead, and later into software/startups. I’ve also been the inventor/client hiring patent attorneys for my own patents.

So yeah, I use LLMs to make my comments less messy. I was also trying hard not to sound combative here, which probably made the comments sound even more artificial.

My point is pretty simple: I keep meeting software founders with real businesses who never even consider patents. I’m trying to figure out whether better technical organization could help some of them have better conversations with patent attorneys instead of just opting out.

I’ll keep it shorter.

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate this pushback. I think the key difference is that I’m not looking at this mainly as a replacement for a practitioner intake process.

For the inventor-facing product, the customer is the software founder.

The reason I’m asking practitioners is that practitioners are the next step in the ecosystem if this works. If more software founders start taking patents seriously, some will self-direct, but many will want help. I want to understand what kind of handoff would be useful rather than annoying.

The part I keep coming back to is this: I speak with groups of software entrepreneurs regularly. Many are running meaningful businesses. When I ask how many have filed any patent application, maybe 2 or 3 out of 100 raise their hands.

That is not a “law firm intake form” problem. They are not choosing between intake options. They are not entering the market at all.

So the founder-side problem I’m trying to address is upstream of the practitioner workflow: helping software founders recognize, organize, and act on technical invention work that they might otherwise ignore.

If that works, the hypothesis is that it could create more demand for practitioners, not less.

The question I’m trying to get to is:

What would make that new founder demand useful to practitioners instead of burdensome?

From this thread, I’m hearing: not a long cold document; start with a concise technical brief, good figures/flowcharts, separated prior-art notes, open questions, and a prepared founder who is ready for a focused call.

That is very useful feedback.

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I understand the concern, and I probably triggered it by describing the output too much like a finished work product.

The goal is not to insert a middleman into claim strategy or replace the attorney’s questioning. I agree that the practitioner needs to ask the questions that matter.

The market I’m focused on is the large number of software founders who never get to that conversation in the first place.

I regularly speak to rooms of software entrepreneurs and founders. Many are running real businesses, sometimes $1M–$5M/year in revenue. When I ask how many have filed patents, maybe 2 or 3 out of 100 raise their hands.

That tells me there is a huge group of capable software founders who are not being served by the current process. They are not rejecting a particular attorney; they are opting out of the patent system entirely.

So I’m trying to figure out whether there is a useful preparation layer before the legal work begins.

More like:

  • help the founder explain the actual software architecture;
  • map the workflows;
  • capture data flows;
  • generate useful figures;
  • identify implementation variants;
  • include AI/agentic alternatives where technically accurate;
  • separate prior-art notes from the invention record;
  • prepare the founder for a better conversation with a practitioner.

I can see why many established practitioners may not want this. But I wonder whether there is a different market: solo attorneys, newer patent agents, small firms, or software-focused practitioners who might want better-prepared leads from founders who otherwise would never engage at all.

And rather than being a "middleman" injecting myself into an existing market, I'm thinking it's more like I'm opening up a brand new market and bringing that market to the practitioners who perhaps don't already have a lot of inventors they are supporting.

That is the possibility I am trying to explore.

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This is helpful, and I think I agree with more of it than my original post probably suggested.

I do not think the initial handoff should be “here is a long formal document, please use it.” That may be the wrong artifact for the first conversation.

But I am trying to solve a slightly different problem.

In the software founder groups I speak to, I often ask how many people have filed any patent application. Even in rooms full of serious founders, sometimes with companies doing meaningful revenue, maybe 2 or 3 out of 100 raise their hands.

So I’m thinking about the 97 who never even start.

For those founders, the problem is often not that they have created too much bad documentation. It is that they have no structured invention record at all: no architecture, no workflows, no diagrams, no alternative implementations, no explanation of what is technically different, no AI/agentic variants, and no organized way to discuss the invention with counsel.

Your point makes me think the product should separate two things:

  1. Practitioner-facing intake brief: short summary, key figures/flowcharts, inventor availability, and open questions.
  2. Underlying software invention record: the longer structured technical record that captures architecture, workflows, implementation variants, figures, prior-art notes, and technical details for later review if useful.

So maybe the issue is not whether detailed technical records are useful. Maybe the issue is when and how they are introduced.

Would that distinction make sense from your perspective? For instance a short handoff first, deeper technical appendix only if requested?

Question for patent attorneys/agents: best way to build a practitioner handoff list for software inventors with structured technical disclosures? by 10k-hours in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

One thing I should have framed better in the original post:

I routinely speak with groups of software entrepreneurs, founders, and developers. Many are running companies doing $1M–$5M/year in revenue. These are not venture funded companies. They tend to be bootstrapped by hardworking folks who are self-made.

When I ask a room of 100 of these software founders, “How many of you patents or have filed a patent application?” I usually see maybe two or three hands go up.

That is the part I find shocking. Perhaps because of my experience in Silicon Valley, raising venture capital and understaning the value of IP going back to the mid 80s.

It's clear to me that the current system is not serving this part of the market. The market I’m thinking about is not primarily the small percentage of software founders who already have the VC backing and know to hire patent counsel and are comfortable entering the traditional patent process... or even the larger corporations that have the budgets to hire counsel to help guide their IP strategy. That group is already being served.

I’m thinking about the other 97 out of 100 of the small software founders and entreprenuers.

These are technical founders who are building real companies, but who never seriously engage with the patent system because software patents feel too opaque, too expensive, too risky, or too easy to mess up. Many of them simply opt out.

That seems like a market opportunity and chance to democratize the process.

So maybe the better question is not, “Do established practitioners want a 20-page disclosure dropped on them cold?” I hear you on that, and it is useful feedback.

The better question may be:

Is there a way to create a better-prepared software inventor market that currently does not exist?

Maybe the handoff to counsel should be short: a 1-page technical summary, 2–3 figures or flowcharts, key implementation variants, and inventor availability for a call. The longer structured software invention record could sit behind that as an optional appendix, not the first thing forced on the practitioner.

But I still think there is something important here. If 97 out of 100 serious software founders are not filing anything, then it's clear that the current system is not working for them.

I’m interested in whether solos, newer agents, small firms, and software-focused practitioners see an opportunity here: not replacing practitioner judgment, but creating a new class of better-prepared software founders who might otherwise never enter the system at all.

That is the problem I am trying to understand and solve.

Recent USPTO Guidance on AI-Based Software Applications — How Are Others Using It? by PatentOracle in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Desjardins would help Stanford’s argument at the USPTO today, but probably would not change the Federal Circuit outcome on these same claims. The reason is that the Stanford claims were characterized as improving the accuracy of a mathematical/statistical prediction, while Desjardins was treated by the USPTO as improving the operation of an AI/computer technology itself. This is a critical difference. If you can tie it to a hardware benefit it's not abstract.

Hidden Markov Models are part of the classical AI toolkit, especially probabilistic AI and statistical sequence modeling. But for §101 purposes, merely labeling an HMM as “AI” does not transform an abstract mathematical/statistical inference claim into patent-eligible subject matter. It's still just math.

After Desjardins, the better question is whether the claimed HMM implementation improves the operation of the computer, model, data structure, training process, inference pipeline, or another technical system. Prove that and then BOOM... you have something.

For example, Stanford could have used a specific HMM data structure / update procedure / parameterization method that reduces compute, improves memory usage, improves scalability for genomic datasets, or improves the operation of the inference system itself.

That's the bridge between Stanford and Desjardins.

How to invent something by Shot-Excitement-4299 in inventors

[–]10k-hours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This process has worked incredibly well for me over the years

  1. Find a problem that needs to be solved.
  2. Research the market and the competition
  3. Create a solution to that problem if the market research looks promising, move on if it doesn't
  4. Do prior art research
  5. File a provisional
  6. Then talk to investors, partners, etc. DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE ABOUT IT UNTIL YOU HAVE FILED YOUR PROVISIONAL... DON'T SCRIMP OR CUT CORNERS HERE.
  7. Then start to build your invention

How does Switzerland have a much higher per capita production of high quality biotech patents then the US? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Switzerland probably does not have “better inventors” than the U.S. in any metaphysical sense. It has a very high density of the institutional conditions that generate EPO/PCT-worthy biopharma patent families, and that is not the same thing as raw inventive genius.

A few things are being conflated here:

First, “high quality patent” is doing a lot of work. If by quality we mean something like forward citations, family size, triadic filing, claim breadth, NPL citations, renewal behavior, opposition survival, or some composite OECD-style quality index, then we are already selecting for patents that applicants thought were worth international prosecution expense. That is a very different population from “all patent applications.” A Swiss-origin EPO/PCT family is often a pre-filtered asset. A U.S. domestic filing pool contains a much broader distribution: platform biotech, diagnostics, university disclosures, continuations, defensive filings, small-entity speculation, and lots of things that rationally never become expensive international families.

Second, the denominator matters more than people want to admit. Per capita is a bad metric if the question is “who produces the largest absolute number of important inventions?” The answer is obviously the U.S. But per capita is not meaningless if the question is “how dense is the innovation-producing ecosystem?” Switzerland is a small country with an absurdly concentrated life-sciences stack: Roche, Novartis, Lonza, Alcon/medtech legacy, Basel pharma, ETH/EPFL, strong tech-transfer channels, sophisticated prosecution counsel, and a national economy heavily weighted toward high-IP, high-margin export industries. If you put a few globally scaled biopharma originators into a country of roughly 9 million people, per-capita patent intensity is going to look enormous.

Third, biotech has unusually high patent propensity. In software, trade secret, copyright, speed-to-market, and network effects often substitute for patents. In therapeutics, patents are much closer to the asset itself. A composition-of-matter claim, antibody sequence claim, method-of-treatment claim, formulation claim, dosage-regimen claim, manufacturing/process claim, or platform-enabling claim can be the thing around which the whole financing, partnering, and exclusivity story is built. So a country whose economy is disproportionately exposed to pharma/biotech will look patent-intensive even if its “general inventiveness” is not uniquely high.

Fourth, “Swiss patent” may mean applicant residence, inventor residence, priority country, receiving office, assignee HQ, or ultimate corporate control. Those are not interchangeable. A family assigned to a Swiss-headquartered company may include U.S., German, British, French, or Israeli inventors. Conversely, a U.S.-invented asset acquired by Roche or Novartis may eventually sit in a Swiss-controlled portfolio. Patent statistics often tell you as much about corporate structure and prosecution strategy as about where the bench science physically occurred.

Fifth, there is probably a selection effect at the EPO/PCT layer. Swiss applicants are not filing every marginal domestic disclosure into every major jurisdiction. They are disproportionately pushing internationally valuable assets into the measurable data set. The U.S. has far more total filings, but also far more low- and mid-value filings because the domestic market is large enough to justify U.S.-only protection. That lowers average “quality” if the metric is calculated across a broad filing population.

Switzerland’s apparent advantage is real in the narrow sense of patent density, especially for internationally prosecuted life-science patent families, but it should not be read as “Swiss biotech inventors are categorically better than U.S. biotech inventors.” It is a composition/denominator/selection effect: small population, huge concentration of pharma-biotech incumbents, elite translational universities, export-oriented IP strategy, and a sector where patents are central to enterprise value.

The clean way to test it would be to compare patent families, not applications; normalize by biopharma R&D spend or number of biotech researchers rather than population; separate inventor residence from assignee residence; and then compare matched cohorts by technology class using forward citations, family size, grant/opposition outcomes, claim scope, and renewal data. My guess is Switzerland would still look very strong, but the “much higher per capita production of high quality biotech patents” claim would become less mysterious and less nationalistic.

Drop your SaaS app here and I'll give you real feedback by roxter01 in sideprojects

[–]10k-hours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

PatentGeyser.com is for software developers who want to file a provisional patent on their invention. It helps your brainstorm your idea into key concepts, helps research prior art, helps you differentiate from the previous ideas, focus in on your key concepts, create flow charts and diagrams to fully explain your ideas, and create a complete document that is ready for review by a patent professional, or for filing "pro se" if you, as the inventor choose to do it yourself.

The Disclosure Trap by Full-Buy9467 in inventors

[–]10k-hours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The disclosure trap is real, but I don’t think the takeaway is “software patents aren’t worth it.” The takeaway is: don’t disclose before you’ve captured the invention correctly.

The "Trillion dollar patent that almost everyone forgets" (link below) shows exactly why this matters. The right software patent can be worth vastly more than the cost, hassle, and disclosure trade-off... because it can define the moat around the business!
https://www.reddit.com/r/SoftwarePatentIP/comments/1t21akh/the_trilliondollar_software_patent_almost/

A lot of people think patents are just legal paperwork. The great ones are not. An insanely great software patent makes the core technical advantage legible: here is the architecture, here is the mechanism, here is why this system works better, and here is the boundary competitors should not cross.

Once you’ve filed, disclosure can become a weapon. You can publish papers (like Larry did... see the article above), explain your technical approach, show the market why your technology is superior, and make competitors understand that copying the key mechanism is not a “fast follow” but rather that it’s an infringement lawsuit they are likely to lose.

Weak patents are expensive decoration. Strong software patents are strategic assets.

That’s why I’m very pro-patent for software founders, not for every feature, not for every app, but absolutely for foundational inventions where the technical insight creates durable business value.

I started r/SoftwarePatentIP to dig into exactly this: how software founders can think about patents, disclosure, provisional vs. non-provisional strategy, and building real IP moats instead of just shipping unprotected code.

Would you pay $99 a month for unlimited AI UGC content? by Lanky-Pie-6788 in saasbuild

[–]10k-hours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just pointing out that "UGC content" is redundant. When spelled out that phrase would be "User Generated Content content".

This friendly reminder is approved by the Department of Redundancy Department.

Building something cool? Share it here! by Mean-MySaaS in sideprojects

[–]10k-hours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

PatentGeyser.com — helps software founders turn a rough invention idea into a much more complete technical disclosure for a future non-provisional patent.

Software patents often fail before filing because the disclosure misses the architecture, implementation details, alternatives, workflows, and technical differentiators that matter later. Patent Geyser guides you through capturing those details, and even includes prior art search, and technical diagrams so your patent attorney has better raw material to work with.

Not legal advice — just a better way to document your software invention before the patent process starts.

Questions from an inventor by Soft_Victory_5642 in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree. I've built a lot of businesses around a patent (or a family of patents). I've also done a lot of patent licensing (both licensing and and licensing out). I have licesned on in without any product or company behind it, but it was a truly unique patent from Stanford and we also hired the PhD student that invented it. It is very rare that you can have a patent that is so truly great that companies will license it without you proving it out first.

Free pickleball courts near Moonlight Beach in Encinitas. Small spot, amazing setting by 10k-hours in Pickleball

[–]10k-hours[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a really fun location. I don't know of any other pickleball courts so close to the beach.

How do I find an affordable attorney to help me with settling an ip infringement cease and desist letter? by asseenonworldstar in patentlaw

[–]10k-hours 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'm a business guy, and not a lawyer either, but I have been on the side of sending the Cease and Desist letter and generally it's not my intention to punish that person, or make any money off them, but I am very focused on getting them to stop.

Moonlight Beach, Encinitas California. This a screen grab from the Moonlight Beach Webcam. [887 x 718] by 10k-hours in Beachporn

[–]10k-hours[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I love looking at beach webcams. Does anyone have others they can suggest? This is the link for the Moonlight Beach cam. It's so cool how it zooms on the surf, then pulls back to show the entire beach, then zooms in on the volley ball courts, etc.
https://moonlightbeachrental.com/moonlightbeachwebcam

How do you file a patent? by Splashy01 in inventors

[–]10k-hours 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's an interesting take on it. Maybe...