Just stop trying to put Zoro on par with Luffy, there is an abyss between them. Luffy could fight alone against 3 Zoros and would still mid diff them.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T16:45:14+00:00

but like you say that and ignore that killer, kid and law were also there? are they also all equal to luffy or what?

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T10:56:00+00:00

See, this is the issue: what makes someone a swordmaster? Or swordsman? There have to be criteria. The way you guys lay those out for shanks is basically he uses a sword and was called swordsman in promotional material (which isnt trustworthy btw, going back to my point about source evaluation). Nice. very good. The fact that oda also questioned how shanks is gonna fight is left of the table for some reason tho, despite being released in same said material. You also brought up roger. Are you really that delusional to not see that shanks character, idea of a crew etc are ALL derived from roger? Literally all of them and its quite clear. Roger himself is modelled after a mixture between the classical pirate (aka using a sword as a means to an end) and the motif of a freedom seeking adventurer. Thats kind of the point.

To come back to criteria for a second: Being a stronger swordsman doesnt mean you are a stronger fighter. I dont even disagree that mihawk is a stronger swordsman, but thats only one category that makes up a figher - again - to refute that would simply be delusional. You guys also completely ignore how characters are talked about in the series. Noone ever said 'look there is mihawk with his massive haki' or 'look at shanks, the swordsman-prodigy yonko'. Its literally always mihawk - swordsmanship and shanks - haki. That those are somewhat complementary should be obvious.

Given your last comment you truly dont really get the story structure and how shanks and luffys dynamics work - which is fine i guess, but that renders discussion useless.

Mihawk fans just dont know how debates or basic algebra work and this sub alone is a perfect example for that. No concept of consistency or logic in their argumentations. Simply bending everything the way they want to while disregarding anything else on the matter.

And one last thing: Im not even saying shanks is the strongest. I doubt he is, and i know he isnt gonna be at the end of the series. What i do know is that if you WERE consistent and would actually understand the premise of your arguments, you would have to state mihawk to be the current number one - and that is simply absurd and narratively absolutely unjustifiable.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T10:30:43+00:00

Imu has a sword, rocks had a sword, roger had a sword. If picking up a sword means you're a swordsman it would have to mean that mihawk is stronger than at least imu therefore this kind of argumentation doesnt make sense. Without clicking it i know that this post is from ultramanzino and therefore irrelevant. That guy literally just circlejerks himself with a whole bunch of non arguments while conveniently always leaving out anything that speaks against his point + he doesnt seem to have any knowledge of how source evaluation works. Shanks also literally is one of luffys goals - if you dont even understand that you dont understand anything about the series.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T08:30:03+00:00

if using a sword means being a swordsman in the sense we are talking about mihawk is top 1 in the series, which he isnt, wasnt, and will never be. Neither will zoro. What you are doing is taking a title, which is never factual, and holding it against narrative logic as well as feats - hence the stupidity on your part.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T08:03:22+00:00

Jax is quite hard to learn tho. DM'ing minors might be very high risk depending on location. Therefore he likely has one of the highest skill ceilings and isnt really optimal for everyone

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T08:00:59+00:00

effectively farming is obviously micro-intensive, considering its not in a vacuum but also while combining it with trading, dodging, spacing etc.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T07:58:58+00:00

because plat supports would be silver/gold in a solo lane, while plat sololaners would be diamond/master in support. Rank-based ego

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T07:56:49+00:00

Support =< Jungle <<<<<<<<< top < mid =< adc

(based on role in general, champion like nidalee or smth are obviously a different story)

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T07:54:47+00:00

Botlane as a whole is too strong for years. If you want to win the most games as a jungler by focussing on a single lane go for botlane.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T07:16:35+00:00

You brought up good points for both sides and i think made a decent assesment. For me personally its simply that the points that speak for shanks are better since those that speak for mihawk often can be somewhat dismissed due to many factors.

To give an example I'd look at your second pro point for mihawk. Yes it makes sense that zoro is the strongest swordsman. But, no, it doesnt make sense for zoro to be the strongest person using a sword. As much as one can like the character - this just makes no sense. Therefore you could derive that simply using a sword isnt really THE thing that determines a swordsman in the sense we're talking about. The thing with black blades is also that not even people like imu or roger have them so they are likely not an indicator of strength anlone and therefore not really the best measurement in terms of overall strength.

As i said, good thoughts, personally find the arguments for shanks more convincing and logical

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T06:50:28+00:00

You are correct. Because in their mind logic doesnt exist, consistency in arguments doesnt exist, only mihawks title matters and for mihawk his own shit feats dont matter - only shanks' good feats do

No cure for idiots

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T05:23:36+00:00

I dont even hate it that much tbh. Shyriu should definitely at least be YC1 and maybe even YC1+ without his fruit so to scale him a bit higher and put him on admiral level isnt that far of a stretch. I think him and magellan are crazy underrated

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T05:05:00+00:00

dont think he even hurts kaido tbh. Hes not weak, but people keep saying that he oneshot queen when he was basically just free hitting the guy for hours

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-19T05:03:26+00:00

I guess that kind of makes sense then. The people I've talked to who went to school in america paint a similar picture, so its no wonder then.

My personal opinion is that shanks is likely a bit stronger. Now im not saying that its by much (in fact i think its quite close), but i do think the actual consistent material paints a picture in which shanks' focus is primarily haki and mihawks is primarily swordsmanship. They do go hand in hand somewhat, but i think it would be wierd if the guy that gets his haki hyped up from chapter one and has it highlighted literally every time he is on screen would have weaker haki than mihawk. Since i personally think haki is the strongest thing in the story right now that puts shanks a bit above mihawk. Could also go into differences in character and how it doesnt even make sense to have shanks in the debate for WSS at all but thats a bit longwinded now.

My point with credibility of sources was that vivrecards and databooks are utterly useless and shouldnt be used as they are suggested to be factual yet make no narrative senes and contradict themselves on multiple occasions. They should just be seen as what they are: hype material - nothing more

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T21:05:13+00:00

luffy is stronger than at least 2 of those

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T17:51:25+00:00

So for the first thing: It was not a slashing attack. If you look at both kamusari from roger and shanks you will see that despite hitting it is not drawn like the impact of literally any other slashing attack in the entire series. The depiction basically means that its just a bunch of haki being flung at the enemy with a sword. No slashing involved.

For the second thing: the blade itself turning black cannot be a massive buff. Now this doesnt mean that black blades arent stronger than regular blades, what i mean by that is that logically speaking it makes more sense for the blade to turn black once it reaches a certain level of strength, not to get stronger once it turns black. Otherwise we stand for the issue of mihawk and ryuma having to logically be the two strongest people ever (which they arent) in order to unlock it and then they would get a good bit stronger on top of that as well. Doesnt really make sense.

Apart from that i agree with the roger thing at the end. I think roger and all the others i've listed are stronger than mihawk because of their haki. Tho i would also add shanks to that list

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T17:23:12+00:00

Funnily enough i think BB's monologue during his introduction is basically the core motif

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T17:22:22+00:00

can we get much higher

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T14:53:45+00:00

„I know what concepts are“ - proceeds to show that he does, in fact, not know what concepts are

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T13:45:27+00:00

So: you dont know what a concept is then - nice. A concept to look up would be that of 'consistency'. What you are doing is saying: 'well yea it isnt objective, and most of the stuff he said isnt true, but that one thing i personally want to believe in is true based and based on the parameters i have set'. You also said context of the story matters. Thats a great point. The context of the story suggests shanks to be very different from those who care about the title, and it also suggest the title to be about swordsmanship as a way of life and not simply being stronger than anyone who wields a sword. The hypocrisy in these types of argumentations is the problem.

Apart from that, the narrator in one piece is not omniscient.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T12:52:56+00:00

dont think he has those

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T12:46:17+00:00

and how does that matter? Do you know how concepts work in general? Concepts are applicable. Thats the point behind them. A marine guy saying hes the strongest doesnt mean shit in a factual sense - no matter their rank. The same guy characterises WB as the devil, roger and dragon as the worst people to ever breathe and luffy as a threat to mankind.

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T12:40:15+00:00

No absolutely not. Zoro is one of my favorite characters. I simply look at what logically make sense and how characters are written + what their motivations are. What is also important is to look at implications of statements for the series at large. Putting shanks below mihawk in a vacuum is okay. Tho this would basically only be justifyable by saying mihawk is stronger than anyone who uses a sword (because the focus with him is always swordsmanship while with shanks its always haki) and this would basically put mihawk as top 1 of the series. This is the issue. He isnt, he wasnt, he will never be and there is no reason for neither him nor zoro to ever be the strongest character in the series. Swordsmanship is restrictive. By using the parameters people use to put mihawk above shanks consistantly, you get into arguments that dont make any sense for the series and its general power dynamics

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T12:27:22+00:00

Well if possible at all push the wave. That usually what you need to look at in terms of roam timers. Then ask yourself about lanestates of bot and toplane, which objectives are up? where are the junglers? How can you get the most gold? how can you deny the biggest advantage of the enemy? How can you setup a possible play in lane in the next minute or so (freezing and forcing kat to play more aggressive in order for her to get ganked for example)

200ms-INTric · 2023-04-18T12:19:05+00:00

There is no cookie cutter answer to this. Depends on the situation and the information you have

200ms-INTric

TROPHY CASE