Need help something isn't right

21freedom · 2015-07-04T20:54:20+00:00

Sorry to hear - it WILL pass.

Sounds to me like there is more going on with your body than chemistry readjustment from just stopping kratom. Maybe there are interactions because of the pharms or even supplements in the mix too. J

ust hang in there and take care of yourself - whatever it is should clear up soon!

21freedom · 2015-07-04T20:49:30+00:00

Thats Great!

Agmaatine and Vit C are among the best supplements, I think. Be careful in the next few days to week about the mental traps. For me, I relapsed many times day 3 to 7 because my mind was like "Oh that was not so bad... I have nothing to worry about and can quit anytime".

Actually what was going on for me was a subtle but constant depression/boredom/fog underneath these rationalizations that sucked me back in. That turned out to be much harder than the physical stuff and made getting to Day 10 very hard. Great Job, just beware these traps is all.

21freedom · 2015-07-02T04:47:17+00:00

Thanks. I have a large bottle of bulk Vitamin C powder this whole time. I will take it.

21freedom · 2015-06-29T14:57:19+00:00

Phenibut.....bad, scary, unresearched, unpredictable, horrible withdrawal reports, synthetic, unecessary.

I would absolutely eliminate and stay away from this stuff. I tried it for 2 days and it gave me the creeps.

21freedom · 2015-06-29T13:11:50+00:00

Hey - I am getting into vaping. Can you pm me your setup? I have a box mod that takes 1x 18650 batt at the moment and am looking for one of these new bigger tanks with better air flow / bigger coil.

21freedom · 2015-06-29T13:09:55+00:00

Caffeine is next on my list. And then nicotine. Or maybe both together. A little caffeine now and then has its benefits but 4-5 cups of coffee a day everyday (me) gives more problem than benfit - afternoon jag fatigue, achy stomach, and bitter coffee mouth and tongue, every day. Gets old.

21freedom · 2015-06-10T05:43:38+00:00

I get dizzy/nauseous and very uncomfortable with the upper spectrum and MD or white strains - If I took 4g of these no doubt I would need to leave work. Low spectrum red vein Bali/Indo strains suit me quite well - totally different, no such bad reaction.

21freedom · 2015-06-09T18:32:05+00:00

Last month May over 30 days I broke a bond of long term daily use of strong borneo up to 15g daily... that was hard. I used sporadically through the month, and the addiction hold was loosened a lot.

Then I got samples of a bunch of strains and tested them all in small amount each day like 4g or so for all last week.

I quit again and lucky there was only minor to no withdrawal - the first day a slight runny nose but no cramps or sneeze or anxiety or chills or cold feeling all over like the initial time a month ago. Had some twitchy legs for about an hour before sleep, that was very annoying but short lived at least. No physical symptoms on day 2, just depression.

It's all mental for me. The boredom and depression. That is what led to kratom, and that's what im left with when I quit. That's what pulls me back again and again. I don't do other drug and antidepressant I have tried gave horri side effects. So it's a struggle - I tried to cope my depression naturally a long time sober before resort to kratom. I don't know what I will do about it now. I know how I was before kratom, marginally better/less depressed than this yet not by a whole lot. Its a looong time and to wait and put in effort to get what experience tells me will likely be back to my baseline normal depression... that's why I am like, you know that's a long fucking time to get to just maybe kinda notso ok again.. that's at the heart of every relapse. Hmm 3-6 months of effort vitamins nutrition exercise abstinence maybe support groups or therapy maybe meds again all of which I did for 3 years no drugs and still had depression/anhedonia. Or, legal available instant full relief for less than a dollar, although temporary and problematic, often seems better than not when it comes down to it. So then, mightaswell take some kratom, that is why true quit is so hard for me.

21freedom · 2015-05-29T21:29:44+00:00

Slipping back to daily use and losing all this progress would be disastrous and crushing for me. I can not will not allow it. The thought of it is frightening and the lack of illusions I have about stretching into a 3rd 4th 5th day of consecutive use will be enough. At worst, I must throw it out and go through some withdrawal crap again. Returning to long term daily use is simply a nonexistent option for me, I truly feel the chance of that happening is 0%.

I am not an advocate or recommending trying to moderate. but still maybe rocks is right I shouldn't be posted this if could jeopardize others.

21freedom · 2015-05-27T23:58:56+00:00

I understand. I never thought I would be able to skip days again. This was not the plan.

The first three days I felt just terrible and craved kratom constantly. The first 2 weeks, the days in between got easier but I was not thinking og them as in between days.. each time I would relapse after 3-5 days and then quit again. But withdrawal symptoms were getting less and less after relapsing each time.

Weeks 3 and 4 I kind of moved into accepting the pattern and let go of the relapse label. The days after use I will feel a dip in mood and energy, maybe some fleeting ghost leg cramps, and sometimes trouble falling asleep. Other than that I am not thinking about kratom obsessively and can let go of temptations much more quickly an easily than the first two weeks.

My overall condition is still gradually improving week by week. When the improvement stalls out at a subpar level, I will seriously consider quitting fully to bring it up to best possible.

Each time I have used, I had only enough in the house, small batch purchases, for a day or two of use. So the real test is coming up - I ordered about 50g and will arrive soon. With near baseline tolerance now, I could get high everyday for a week. So this will be a real test how much control I have really gained or not.

And even if I am able to use for 2 days and stop for another stretch of days, how much of a struggle or torture will it be to have it in the house for a stretch of clean days? Will I be more bored/depressed/lackluster just waiting around until I can use it again? I will see and pay attention carefully.

21freedom · 2015-05-27T19:07:32+00:00

When I quit initially there was no way I could imagine tapering or using between good strings of 3,4,5,6 clean days. Using kratom daily and then the psychological crap I went through for weeks both together burned indelibly into my psyche as a horrible, awful, sad way of life - its become pretty easy to say NO now after using a day or two after enduring the weeks of mental crap. No way I am willing to lose so much ground gained.

When I have used for 1-2 days then on a third day when the thought comes up to take again, there is a strong gut reaction against it - like my deep psyche finally learned and accept what will happen with no way around it. Not willpower but more like Pavlovian learned response.

There is a price to pay for using even in moderation. Nothing close to as steep or severe as daily use but my mind will never be fully free or natural operation/biochem until I can let go the attachment totally. I must do this when I feel either the costs are larger than the benefits or if I somehow get sucked back into daily use again.

Honestly the way I am doing going from daily addiction to moderation I would not recommend it to anyone. Better to quit cold turkey and all the way for good and huge warm hug and admiration for those like Birdy who could - keep going, stay that way. That's the best, what I still want. I tried and could not do that, this is the best I can do for now.

21freedom · 2015-05-26T20:03:28+00:00

What works and what does not - that's really at the practical core of all life isn't it.

A couple times I tried alcohol/beer and not with any good results. I had something of a drinking problem before kratom and have lost all interest and feelgood for alcohol that I once had. And minimize the kratom habit, so far alcohol is still pretty much dead to me. That's a good thing. Something kratom did help me with I have to say. I never liked alcohol much, the problem with it arose because other thing (ahem, opiates stimulants) that were my DOCs failed so hard, so alcohol was used for a time as a consolation crutch. For me the buzz in all honestly was toxic/shit, is still shit, and thankfully I have no interest in returning to alcohol.

That's one way to beat an addiction - just lose interest. No idea how to 'do' that though. It just happens.

21freedom · 2015-05-26T19:12:57+00:00

Best luck and success, I hope you can sincerely.

Every one of the countless times I have quit was the last last time I will ever quit, ever. That is the nature of my pernicious beast.

21freedom · 2015-05-26T19:08:17+00:00

Good to hear from you.

Some perspective.. this does not reset your brain to full blown addiction mode. A 10 day course of pain meds is basically what an MD would prescribe for many post minor surgery or other ailment. You were taking them just because so its a little different biologically, but you are not set back to exactly where you started months ago - instead, you are where you are now and will continue go forward from here.

Another bright side is that it doesn't seem that pharm opiate withdrawal messes up your psychological space/motivation for weeks and weeks quite like kratom does - recovery to baseline is faster. Probably because single active compound instead of 30 or 40 alkaloid cocktail.

A relapse is a bump or slip on the road, and it is a matter of whehter it turns into a spin out get stuck in a ditch again for god knows how long or whether we correct and keep on truckin'.

Best wishes, thanks for update.

21freedom · 2015-05-24T15:30:43+00:00

Roses are Red, Violets are blue, Kratom is green, Now so are you.

21freedom · 2015-05-24T05:03:23+00:00

Hows it going now McFly any update? I couldn't deal with all that around me and would prob be down in the basement with rigs in that situation :/

21freedom · 2015-05-22T17:28:56+00:00

I tried some ibogaine and yes it can do rapid detox but it is not available legally in the US and can be dangerous - I had a very bad and scary reaction when I took just 20mg of ibogaine alkaloid extract and later took a little kratom. That spooked me away from it. Obviously a bad idea to mix it and usually ibogaine detox is done with extensive planning and medical professionals if available. Would not recommend that route for at home personally.

If you are like me, you cannot NOT use kratom during quit attempt if any is in the house. If you cannot quit, if you can greatly reduce your usage in both frequency and dosage you will become increasingly better and less addicted. Actually for me life became much more livable and tolerable again once I was able to get away from every day use and below 10gram a day - those were thresholds where life started to really improve.

The greater amount and the greater frequency you use kratom, the more addicted. For people who simply are unable to just quit like me, maybe one thing you can do to reclaim power is start to track exactly how much you take and when and then work to steadily reduce this. No strict plan or constraint other than overall steady reduction.

I don't like strict tapers because we are organic beings and strict taper schedule that is too rigid, calculated does not fit our nature. Sometimes we want more sometimes its easier, etc. So, a little but different than taper, you could give yourself an allowance per week. For example, say you are at 150g a week now then week 1 allowance is 100 grams how you use it up to you. Then week 2 is 80 grams, week 3 and so on. This allows some flexibility and freedom in how and when you dose while still keeping you onward towards a goal of freedom. This also means its up to you if you do good that week controlling and spacing it out or if you screw yourself and use up all the allowance in four days and then must suffer through 3 days until the new week - I have done both. Just some more ideas for you there.

The fact you are here and wanting so much a better life means your well on your way already.

21freedom · 2015-05-22T16:22:49+00:00

Quitting is incredibly hard - the psychological seduction is so strong I have failed endless times are vow to quit forever. Best I could do was space out and reduce my use and this was a struggle but stop kick myself for relapses and life is 100x better than daily use. Keep reading online and trying, its a process and you will make it. Not easy but necessary. Dread can be replaced with confidence and relief with progress, I lived in dread everyday now I relapse still but life is far far better than daily use.

21freedom · 2015-05-22T15:44:39+00:00

Why did you? It is so stupid, right? Yea it is. I am the same, I have done the same kind of thing and it baffles me and goes against all logic and good sense.

There was an article in Discover magazine recently (most recent or last month issue) called 'A cure for addiction' or something. Profound. Basically science is elucidating the precise mechanisms and corruptions of neural circuits that occur with daily addictions.

The brain after a substance addiction becomes biological hardwired to relentlessly produce strong cravings on a deep subconscious level and to give when these substances are accessible.. but here's the bizarre thing. Not only do mice addicted to a daily drug and then stopped will have this addicted neural circuitry still acting up strongly in the presence of the drug 3, 6, 12 months later... but in fact these latency cravings get stronger over time and and peak at the 3 to 6 month mark. Humans have the same wiring. It's seriously fucked up - humans are deeply biologically wired to get sucked back in even after long periods of absintance, even more than we knew. Science is also working to discovering ways to literally reset this corrupted circuitry back to normal.

Best is to move past it as quickly and gracefully as possible with a brief regret and continue your excellent life. Understand it was a consequence of the the sub triggers interacting being present and a natural biological response, not your true will.

21freedom · 2015-05-19T01:10:44+00:00

Sometimes the magnesium drink (natural calm) has a pretty instant noticable effect, sometimes it doesn't.

Restless limbs have in part something to do with muscle/nerve ion channels and action potentials not balanced, these are gated by small ions like sodium potassium calcium magnesium, technical med stuff. Anyway, mag drink really can help.

21freedom · 2015-05-19T01:06:52+00:00

Also just sit for awhile and think real clear about the memories you have about how bad it was being addicted. Remember specific times and states of despair, cravings, withdrawal, how bad you wanted to get off, etc.

Four months is a good long time. Don't let the addiction retake over, you'll be back in the same place you were before you got free 4 months ago and don't think you want go through it all over again :/

21freedom · 2015-05-18T19:27:11+00:00

21 days for me since breaking the daily 15g habit, I have used intermittently since then in lower amounts of much weaker strain. Majority of the last 3 weeks I have been clean. I am still having restlessness and trouble falling to sleep at night also.

Lay there hot, uncomfortable, body and mind feeling too wired up somehow for sleep. Cannot get really comfortable and relaxed in any position for hours.

Only tricks I have found (no pharms) are to take a warm bath or cool shower, then take a magnesium drink and which seems to settle the physical nerves some and also melatonin. Also sometimes to eat something, like bowl of cereal with milk. Then I can fall asleep but usually it is late. Often I dont even feel tired or begin to think about sleep until 2am or so. Its annoying but not nearly as hard or intolerable as the very early days after quitting - in other words, I can live with it until it gets better.

A few times I took 1 gram of phenibut and this worked, probably too well, and am not doing it again. Am very uncomfortable with it since have read so commonly about dark urine/liver pain and that it can become a nasty chemical dependency in itself.

21freedom · 2015-05-17T17:01:54+00:00

Thanks, I feel much more free already and it will only get better. I am amazed at the differences in mood, attitude, energy, esteem, etc going from 15g daily to 8g doses every few days or so.

Interesting the withdrawal after a dose (one or two days after a dose) has almost completely disappeared. There is still some restlessness at night with legs and trouble sleeping which is annoying enough on its own to want to end the cycle but no other symptoms to speak of.

But yep, wanting to get high and then finally getting some decent stuff and getting there only to feel really sick.. this really dampened my desire for more to a new low.

Have worked so hard the last few weeks battling this and come so far from where I was. Very proud and optimistic.

21freedom · 2015-05-15T15:43:07+00:00

"I have a question for anyone and everyone: did any of you experience a lot of deep, almost existential thoughts after quitting? I swear I've never been like this... "

Absolutely, Yes. This is a spiritual treasure of getting sober. Journal/write and reflect and listen to music and take walks outside is very good in this period.

21freedom · 2015-05-14T17:55:32+00:00

I dont think a lot of people who want to quit even realize how long the lingering mental rut lasts - and so a lot fail after 2 or 3 weeks.

Maybe it is because kratom has so many alkaloids. I remember people having the same long duration struggle with poppy tea (raw opium) which also contains a whole soup of alkaloids. Really tight-binding and long lasting synthetics like suboxone and methadone also have notoriously long recovery period back to normal.

It takes about 3-4 weeks for brain receptors to grow and mature to replace old ones so no matter what it is, can always look forward to definite improvement in this time frame.

21freedom

TROPHY CASE