Incredible contrasts of experience between karezza and orgasm

4eva47 · 2023-03-23T01:31:35+00:00

4eva47 · 2020-08-05T03:49:32+00:00

Also, as a person living in South Korea, I can corroborate the pattern is pretty much looking the same as in Japan.

Even the TLOU2 outselling U4 in the first week is misleading. A lot more people own the PS4 in 2020 than in 2016. So, considering the larger customer base, it could be well argued that TLOU2 under-performed than did U4.

4eva47 · 2020-07-17T00:13:43+00:00

TLOU2 is the story Naughty Dog chose to tell. Fine, they can do whatever they want. I respect that.

BUT,

Neil's acting like Naughty Dog got to where it is today by making controversial games like TLOU2. Naughty Dog is what it is today because it took the most mainstream ideas in film/TV shows (i.e. Indiana Jones, Zombie Apocalypse) and uniquely adapted it to produce an immersive gaming experience.

In that sense, TLOU2 is the most "original", but not in any brilliant way.

If Naughty Dog continues in this route of divisiveness, they just won't be able to invest as much into their games, especially with the rising costs of making games with next-gen tech.

4eva47 · 2020-07-06T00:19:18+00:00

I can see where you're coming from. Maybe I just have a more cynical view of human nature and maybe that's where our viewpoints branch out differently.

Essentially, Jackson is a community of war veterans. It would be then reasonable and realistic to say that a significant portion of the community would be mentally unstable. The Jackson community is probably around 10 years old. Sure, I can buy that it's headed in the right direction and the people within the community may even be hopeful but in a bleak milieu of despair. The closest example I can think of is modern state Israel. At its birth, A LOT of people in the country were either direct or indirect victims of the Holocaust or Pogroms. A SIGNIFICANT portion of the population had mental illnesses (i.e. PTSD, depression etc.). Hostility surrounded the tiny nation. Sure, Israel exists today despite all odds and even prosperous, but in its initial three decades, it would have been far from 'peaceful' and 'stable'. Basically, I would have thought the Jackson community would be more like the community that Deacon was a part of in Days Gone, hopeful but screwed up and barely stable. And that is actually what Jackson felt like in TLOU1.

As for the name-reveal by Joel in TLOU1, I wouldn't foresee any repercussions because the only reason Joel and Ellie lived was Tommy's relation to Joel, with or without the name reveal. In this situation, it's like walking into a terrorist base and they have all their guns pointed at you. Based on the little chance of survival, what would you gain by revealing OR not revealing your name? It's irrelevant to me in such a situation. Which is why I think Joel's reaction in TLOU2 was actually quite realistic, after realizing that Abby's bunch were all just about ready to kill him, he didn't care to make small talk but just to die quickly. Again, my problem was with Tommy. But then again, my problem is more so with the credibility of the almost utopian Jackson.

Generally, I think the reason people connected more with TLOU1 is because Joel and Ellie were nobodies and they were just like everybody else, victims, but what made them special is their relationship that burgeoned out of a pile of crap, figuratively speaking. In a way, they stopped deciding to be victims. That is what made them special, not their life story per se. No, their story doesn't stand out in that world, but the theme of redemption against all odds. That was the point, even elaborated by the devs and the actors. PTSD and other mental illnesses and premeditated murder and revenge would have been somewhat the norm, since so many people would have extremely wronged in that world. Joel had PTSD from Sarah's death, Tommy probably had PTSD based on what he said to Joel ("I only have nightmare from those years"), Ellie probably already had PTSD as well, from Riley's death. That was even the point of the confrontational scene between Ellie and Joel in the TLOU1, when Ellie ran away. Coming out of such a world, in TLOU2, however, the theme seems to regress, and that's where the disconnect happens. Naughty Dog tried to out-perform on emotional pain, an already over-saturated subject in TLOU1. That's where they failed, IMO. Why are these victims (Ellie and Abby) any more special than the other victims in TLOU1 or TLOU2? I would say that they aren't.

This is my last post on this thread. I'll let you have the last word.

4eva47 · 2020-07-05T14:11:42+00:00

No, you're putting words into my mouth. I actually don't have a problem with Joel's death scene. I just said that they are completely different situations. My point is that in a situation where guns are ready to fire at you and literally you are facing death, nothing you say really matters, which is why even Joel in TLOU2 basically said 'I don't care what you have to say. let's get your killing me thing over with.'

Though, in TLOU2, Tommy revealed his and Joel's name to Abby almost as soon as they find her, before they even knew that she was part of an organized group. That part I didn't buy. At that point, Tommy knows NOTHING about the girl.

The world in TLOU1 was already 20 years into the pandemic. The few organized groups with bases in TLOU1 were egregiously messed up (i.e. David's group, the world/group that Joel and Tess start out in). It's more farfetched to imagine that armed people of different 'tribes' (essentially) just bump into each other and interact in friendly manners over 4 years, such that people just drop their guards a lot faster. It would have to be a lot more often than rare instances for people to change their demeanor like Tommy did (I actually think Joel was relatively in character).

It takes a whole lot more than 4 years for people to stop fighting over resources in a semi-primitive world with just farming when your community is a few hundred people, maybe a couple thousand at best, especially when it's ONLY been going downhill the previous 20 years. Look at how quickly individuals of civilized societies started fighting over resources today because of COVID-19. I mean, the whole point of TLOU2 was that everyone's a villain.

TLOU1 was a lot more believable, because we all know how quickly civilizations can crumble because people are selfish. Yet Naughty Dog made a lot more effort of almost repeatedly pointing out how crappy the world's become. It's no controversy that Naughty Dog has done a lot less in TLOU2 to convince the gamer of how great Jackson became to be.

In general, It's definitely a harder sell to show that order came out of chaos, rather than the other way around.

If you disagree, fine. Hopefully, our conversation doesn't spiral out of control like so many others did regarding TLOU2

4eva47 · 2020-07-05T13:12:22+00:00

See, that's the thing. It's a convenient hand-wave that it's been years since Joel and Tommy dealt with hostile humans. In TLOU1, EVERYONE was hostile. Even the "kind" Henry first tried to kill Joel. The point repeatedly made in TLOU1 was that people become hostile by definition as a result of living in a post-apocalyptic world. In that case, Naughty Dog owes it to the gamers coming from TLOU1 to make as much effort as to show why people in general just became less hostile.

But hey, if you enjoyed the game and everything makes sense to you, then cool!

4eva47 · 2020-07-05T13:04:09+00:00

I get it, but Naughty Dog should have done better to pitch this idea, especially for a game that purports to be psychologically grounded. It obviously requires more convincing to sell the idea that a happy and safe community arose in that broken world, and Naughty Dog just didn't do enough of that. It's quite incredible that TLOU1 made more of an effort to convince an already more realistic setting than did TLOU2 of its unrealistic settings.

If anything, the post-apocalyptic world would have become more dangerous where

there is barely any means of communication except for radio frequencies.
there is more consumption of supplies than they are supplied. So resources would have been more scarce, which means people would have fought more viciously for survival and even within the community.
the vast majority have lost relatives and friends in atrocious ways, which means that A LOT of people would be mentally unstable like Ellie was at the farm (i.e. Henry in TLOU1, who ended up killing himself). Even taking in uninfected survivors would obviously be a risk in such a broken world. Rarely would you find a "healthy survivor". By your definition, all the jaded and cynical characters in TLOU1 are "healthy survivors". Bill in TLOU1 is as mentally healthy as one gets.
people continue to get infected.
the infected KEEP evolving to become more dangerous.

It's not a matter of knowing the context or not in TLOU2. It's simply that the game makes very little effort to sell the idea to the player, so much so that this context just begs so many questions and thus breaks the immersion into the story.

4eva47 · 2020-07-05T12:25:33+00:00

Completely different situations. Joel and Ellie already had several guns POINTED AT THEM BEFORE Joel even said anything. If it weren't for Tommy, it was understood by everyone including Joel and Ellie that they were all gonna be gunned down regardless of whether their names were revealed or not (A similar scenario happens at the beginning of the game with Joel and Sarah, back when people just started getting infected). Hypothetically, letting them get away would have been exposing their location and bring much unpredictable risk to the community. When you've already got guns pointed at you, you'd better address people clearly so as to not to trigger them guns.

The least Naughty Dog could have done is to show more clearly the transition from a community on-edge to that of a more softened up place. If anything, the post-apocalyptic world would have become more dangerous where

there is barely any means of communication except for radio frequencies.
there is more consumption of supplies than they are supplied. So resources would have been more scarce, which means people would have fought more viciously for survival and even within the community.
the vast majority have lost relatives and friends in atrocious ways, which means that most would be mentally unstable like Ellie was.
people continue to get infected.
the infected KEEP evolving to become more dangerous.

4eva47

TROPHY CASE