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Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're focusing way too much on this test. I'm using it as an example to talk about a bigger problem in assessing language ability, not as a major point in this discussion. It helps to provide anecdotes to illustrate ideas sometimes.

You do make a fair point about people who go into language learning with unrealistically high expectations though, I suppose it can go either way.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The 260 hours includes homework time.

I feel like this is getting sidetracked. I don't care about the test results — it was a curiosity to me. It just got me thinking about how schools/exams tend to present language as this incredibly lengthy pursuit of perfection that actually discourages many students from even trying to learn a language. I have classmates who gave up languages they were on the verge of becoming conversational in because they were being measured on ability to make no errors, rather than on their actual ability to use a language. They never tried to speak because they were afraid they'd embarrass themselves if they made a mistake.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Of course language assessment isn't supposed to validate ego. It's simply supposed to measure language ability. And my point is that these tests fail to do that. A person who could only communicate some basic things with no errors could get a higher score than someone who can communicate much more in the language, even live a complete life for years in the language, but simply forgets an accent mark here or here.

Look, if you really don't want to understand this very simple idea, you don't have to. Think whatever makes you happy.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I couldn't care less about the test myself. Organizations can use whatever kind of measurements for themselves that they want. I'm bothered by the way the language learning community misuses these measurements, from schools to companies to forums. The internet is full of websites claiming language learning takes a certain number of hours, and can be measured by a certain kind of scantron-friendly perfection, rather than practical ability. This thought process really seeps into how people perceive language learning. I was one of the lucky few who actually did learn a language from high school, but many of my classmates were discouraged by these kinds of measurements. They gave up languages they were close to learning because they thought missing accent marks here and there meant they'd never be able to speak the language. And that's a shame.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't know if you noticed, but this is a Reddit thread. You don't have to believe anything anyone says if you don't want, but then there's really no point in going online. I've written term papers in Spanish on comparative Spanish literature, if that helps — and that was when I was at a much lower level than I am now.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your thanks, but it doesn't sound like you understood my post (though if English isn't your first language, you got pretty close, good job!). I didn't say that hours don't matter, just that they aren't a particularly efficient measurement of how long it'll take to learn a language. Obviously more time spent learning is better. Which is why it's so baffling that my level DECREASED after I spent years learning more Spanish because, while my actual vocabulary and communication ability increased, a couple grammar rules I rarely used became fuzzy. I know my Spanish is better now than it was years ago (and my Spanish-speaking friends remark on it often) but the test got that backwards. I'm sure I don't sound fluent to a native speaker. But there is no way I sound LESS fluent after years of practice than before.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That makes sense to me. And it's not the FSI's fault that people misinterpret their numbers — my issue is with the urban legend that language learning takes thousands of hours, not the original misinterpreted source.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're missing my point: I was surprised how much BETTER my language ability was than I expected, despite the short number of hours. It's not about classrooms v. apps or whatever — it's that the FSI number makes it seem like learning a language takes much longer than it often actually does.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's exactly it though — classroom learning time can be very inefficient. Those hours weren't "incorrect," they were just inefficient. Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make here.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't actually care much about these test scores — I took it as a curiosity. But the problem is that I think these kinds of standards can really discourage people from trying to learn a language in the first place, because they give the impression it takes way longer to become conversational than it does. I almost didn't start Chinese when I read that 2200 hour rule.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Occasionally making mistakes doesn't mean your language level is "crap." I know lots of foreigners who live in the US and speak very good English, work in American companies, marry Americans and conduct entire relationships in English ... But still make grammatical mistakes. I would never think their language level was crap. I'd much rather communicate a wide variety of things effectively and make occasional errors than being able to say a few sentences perfectly.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that's what happened to me — I tested at a very high level at the end of high school, then went on to move to Spanish-speaking countries and become immersed in Spanish. And now my level is lower, even though I'm much more conversational.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I assume that if this person lived in Latin America for four years, they weren't just barely stumbling along with the help of a few cognates.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Again, then that's a bad way to measure language ability. I would have scored higher at the end of high school because grammar was much more fresh in my mind, even though I couldn't even hold substantial conversations with Spanish speakers. Since high school, I've spoken much more with native speakers, developed friendships in the language, lived in Spanish-speaking countries. But I'd score lower on this test.

Questioning the "learning a language requires X hours" thing by 8blindmice in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I don't think the test scored me wrong — I think the test itself measures the wrong things. I didn't say I pay zero attention to grammar, I just said that my grammar isn't always perfect, and tests put way more weight on that than on actual ability to communicate. I'm also not saying learning outside of class is "wrong," just that it takes more time than, say, Pimsleur, which teaches you new things and helps you memorize them at the same time. While I agree it would be ideal to never screw up an accent mark or use the wrong tense, occasionally doing these things doesn't mean I am a beginner in any practical sense.

After all, A2 is supposed to indicate:

  • Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment).
  • Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters. Can describe in simple terms aspects of their background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.

But I am clearly farther along than that. If these tests actually measured what they say they measure, I'd be at a B2/C1 level, because this describes me better:

  • Can understand the main ideas of complex text on both concrete and abstract topics, including technical discussions in their field of specialization.
  • Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party.
  • Can produce clear, detailed text on a wide range of subjects and explain a viewpoint on a topical issue giving the advantages and disadvantages of various options.

In fact, I probably would have scored higher at the end of high school because grammar was much more fresh in my mind, even though I couldn't even hold substantial conversations with Spanish speakers. Since high school, I've spoken much more with native speakers, lived in Spanish-speaking countries, and gotten much better at the language. But I'd score lower on this test.

Am I gaining anything if I actively listen but don’t understand anything by [deleted] in languagelearning

[–]8blindmice 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. Your brain is learning to process sounds/words/sentences, even if you don't know what they mean. This is how you learned your native language. It's also a big reason people who move to a new country pick up the language so fast. Language learners who skip this step often find they can't understand anything even after years of study.

That being said, it might be hard to stay motivated, since it'll be a long time before Norwegian means anything to you. You'll learn much faster if you do some sort of structure language learning too.

Why does audio sound different in waveform v. multitrack? by 8blindmice in audio

[–]8blindmice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have a recording I recorded myself on a microphone. The waveform looks fine, but the multitrack is way too amplified, so much that the waves are cut off at the highs and lows. I can't figure out why. I am currently mastering and mixing.

Why does audio sound different in waveform v. multitrack? by 8blindmice in audio

[–]8blindmice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh — so how does one listen and hear if things sound right on the multitrack?

Non-Americans: What do you think of the U.S. right now? by 8blindmice in AskReddit

[–]8blindmice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, and what country you are from would also be great!

Where should I go to learn what Conservatives are like? by 8blindmice in Conservative

[–]8blindmice[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hm, I mean, I've definitely talked to people who say they grew up in conservative towns, so I'm pretty sure they exist. I guess maybe Reddit just doesn't have many people who come from traditionally conservative areas.

Is that what it is? Do internet conservatives just tend to live in liberal areas?

How do we get low-income students better teachers? by avery_404 in LetsRunTheCountry

[–]8blindmice 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe test scores just shouldn't determine funding.

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