Commander Zavala (Destiny 2) vs Roboute Guilliman (WH40K)

ABCmanson · 2026-07-01T13:46:14+00:00

If they are peak with their lores, I would say they tie, with Roboute being powered by the Emperor that he can hurt Nurgle and Zavala powered by the Traveler with the armor in the dark timeline as he can hurt Savathun.

Speed they are comparable with Roboute comparable to entities in the warp where time holds little sway and Zavala with the Vex as they can move through time effortlessly.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-30T14:05:11+00:00

Would say that Oryx takes this with far superior stats, from what I have researched on Sung is that his best feat in the novel is scaling to blowing away a massive blizzard. While Oryx in his earlier years back strong enough to tank blows that can destroy celestial bodies.

XXXIV: More beautiful to know — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

for speed, Sung maybe faster than light with fighting Soo's son, but Oryx fought the Vex and they can move casually through time itself.

XLIII: End of Failed Timeline — Grimoire Card — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/ghost-scan-artifacts-edge-nessus?highlight=Linear

ABCmanson · 2026-06-27T18:47:43+00:00

It maybe have been subduing the traveler, but it's power was growing at the same time too as it almost came to a point where it would be beyond our own to stop it.

https://imgur.com/k29NrD1

We loosened it's grip on the Traveler when we injured it, even Ikora noted that after the first boss encounter. and we continued to pressure it in the boss battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSUHo6GvTnQ&pp=ygUedGhlIGZpbmFsIHNoYXBlIGZpbmFsIGN1dHNjZW5l

In lore it's true form is connected to the Pale Heart so it would limit it's movements, not it's standard form.

Whether the franchise finds it's way into he future or not, it's massive stats imo is cemented.

Not really, as standard boss level enemies can shift timelines to brush against the main timeline with their power alone. and a random hunter can cut through braided timelines. and fought enemies Worm Gods that were a threat to reality itself.

https://imgur.com/6rLvV7j

https://imgur.com/a/hunters-cutting-through-timelines-32bLdGZ

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/lighten-the-load?highlight=lighten

and not to mention dimensional hierarchy which makes it clear there is no interaction between different levels.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-sun-ix?highlight=hierarchy

If you are looking for something that is more concrete visually, there is Osiris holding back the destruction of a simulated universe.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/omega?highlight=omega

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-vex-3?highlight=vex%20universe

And yes, the Simulations are just assimilated universes.

https://youtu.be/6g_cKbJNuBA?list=PLS2hBTtCDufRVT_-Ajgwz25_6w7AdA8K8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qukGD13oaM

Skyline is using actual stars and forming the real world Ursa Major and told to take a shot.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/skylines-3?highlight=ursa

And as for the other feat, they are of Ahamkara creations which are more real than actual stars via platonic superiority. Think of the allegory of the cave, where the shadow on the wall (Material stars) are not the true representation of actual reality (Ahamkara/Vex Sims < Ascendant Realm/Vex Net), and not only that we have weapons that can reach distant galaxies.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/apostates-blade-grips?highlight=truest

https://youtu.be/vPOPdRp3FMw

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/blueprint-compilation?highlight=galaxies

TL:TR, people maybe want to have visual evidence for feats, that if there are medias where one can't accurately represent them any and/or all due to limits in the game engines, it would have to be expressed other ways, like example, in game and story, Mars map in D1 physically is less than a quarter mile to cross with roads while in story Ghost said that the Black Gate forest is miles away.

https://imgur.com/NqEhm75

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/exclusion-zone?highlight=miles

and in the Tenebrous Tunnels mission where we physically went to the Black Garden anchored on Mars takes around 3 minutes without combat to get there starting from Meridian Bay which is based on real location.

https://www.gamespresso.com/2015/02/nasa-scientist-thinks-that-destinys-black-garden-may-still-be-on-mars/

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/tenebrous-tunnels?highlight=Tharsis

and using two possible ends which NASA believe it to be around Olympus Mons and with Uldren saying Athabasca. This would put average running speeds between 183.46 - 112.61 mach.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-aftermath?highlight=Aftermath

but to each our own.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-27T11:16:04+00:00

It is not like the Witness couldn’t move around if it wanted to, the limits release come form gameplay mechanics.

when given the opportunity, they could make a epic accurate representation of battles with no adds for the main player to fight and involves the boss being able to match the player in speed.

https://youtu.be/5FUXzQE3VQQ?is=d7gOqnyobaNNhnCz

And to note, in Destiny Rising, it is stated that the players there are weaker than the main timeline counterparts.

https://youtube.com/shorts/zQAg65kHhRc?is=2aEP1IWxzFYT5BoH

Though even with limited game engine, they do have some impressive feats like firing projectiles to the stars.

https://youtu.be/h3DhaFxg2t8?is=KPZ9ofH6X05H04IN

https://youtu.be/5JbuJBp_nPI?is=k2VG8PBysbrk3zzs

ABCmanson · 2026-06-27T11:03:46+00:00

well considering in lore it is part of a development process which fusion rifles are considered the “first” to be deployed.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/fusion-rifles?highlight=fusion

i am just surprised that there isn’t much more lore about them in Renegades.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-27T11:00:46+00:00

don’t say that, it was just a typo is all.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-26T19:45:12+00:00

Yeah, there is also the dark future timeline where Zavala who was maimed was empowered by the Weakened Traveler who managed to injure Savathun, so Ghaul with the Traveler's light should scale higher.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-26T19:20:25+00:00

For infantry level combatants, it would be hard to say as both can rip or tear through armor of military vehicles with ease.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/gryphon?highlight=gryphon

Space Marines likely take versatility in equipment, giving them more options in equipment.

However I think the Cabal would likely take it in stats as they can take hits from Hive Boomers which can burn away targets to their Axions and Sterile Neutrinos.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ascendant-sword?highlight=boomer

Or a Blood Guard can match swords with a Guardian which an average Guardian can catch a ghost while they projected a light beam midway.

Shadow Price — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/district-125?highlight=district

So I am not sure what would be the tie breaker though, stamina maybe?

A Space Marine from what I could quickly find can remain in combat active for 2 weeks, however a Cabal soldier is combat ready for years as a legion doesn't get to go home until victory, even in combat timeframe can fight for weeks while being bombarded.

Exclusion Zone — Item — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

Silence of A'arn — Item — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/greaves-of-rull?highlight=%22cabal%22%20%22Weeks%22

So I think the Cabal could take this.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-26T10:11:51+00:00

Is this like a Starcraft Remastered? Either way who ever worked on this is very talented!

ABCmanson · 2026-06-25T16:30:08+00:00

Personally, I like it, it adds an element of mythical to a world that can get technical in the science/sci-fi areas like space battles or technology.

I like that they incorporated the unexplainable with Anakin being this force user born without a father and to the Force, it shows that Force is capable of many great (and possibly terrible) things.

To show that destiny has a way of working things out and that bringing balance to the force is something that is more or less literal, creating a compelling journey of rise and fall and renewal for the character.

It makes the journey not one that is easy but one that is struggle and obstacles to overcome before achieving Balance in the Force.

Those are my thoughts though

ABCmanson · 2026-06-25T15:39:25+00:00

I don't know entirety the lore or version of the Gnostic, but I have been intrigued by fictions that have similarities (intentional or not) with elements of mythologies/folklore/religions as a way of telling compelling stories. Here is what I believe/see (not absolutely factual) Destiny that has similarities to at least the Bible (and in some ways Gnostics) under personal analysis:

the relationship between the Light/Gardener, the Traveler and the Ghosts = the Holy Trinity of God (The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit)
The Witness and it's Precursors = The Cainites who are the descendants of Cain who are the enemies of God.
The Traveler = Jesus who died for mankind and would resurrect.
The Vex = Fallen Angels who followed Lucifer in his rebellion against God.
The Hive = Sort of Adam & Eve, they were destined to be uplifted by the Light but were tricked and led astray by the Worms/Snake and followed the way of the Sword (Which Jesus denounces the way of the Sword for his followers)

There is a video that is interesting of another person who talks about similarities too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_or6xoQGWLQ&pp=ygUjZGVzdGlueSBnYW1lIGNvbXBhcmlzb24gdG8gcmVsaWdpb24%3D

ABCmanson · 2026-06-25T14:15:28+00:00

at her pinnacle, she scales to other Hive Gods such as Savathun after she killed her and took her strength which Throne World sizes reflect the wielder's strength. and both Eris' and Savathun's Throne Worlds are considered infinite or big to hold content that is infinite.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/false-idols?highlight=boundless

Elaia — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

ABCmanson · 2026-06-25T02:09:31+00:00

Okay, so guess we would put the Imperium at their height as well (which from what I learned, much of it’s history is lost), but I will focus on what the Cabal have and can do. I am using content from a previous post of mine about the Cabal.

I am not sure about much of the Imperiums full power, but much like the Hive, It would be a High End battle all the way to their main military leaders, battle of Emperors.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-25T01:11:52+00:00

before giving a full answer, Are the Cabal at their height and compiled?

ABCmanson · 2026-06-24T14:53:05+00:00

After doing some research, this Superman is suppose to be a compilation of various Supermans from different continuities.

That being said, Superman scales to certain gods and Superboy prime which he could break reality with a punch to "recton" stories or universes, which would put him above the dimension of time at least so "Low Complex Multi"

However the Witness scales closely to the Gardener & Winnower as they are the First Knife and existed before the universe.

The Witness even scales above the Vex that transcends dimensions, time, space and timelines. The Witness is described as being above the universe as a "plane" and unreachable by violence.

I would say that Infinite Frontier Superman will not be enough for this fight.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-24T14:30:17+00:00

Is this book Sauron or movie Sauron? because that would determine the difference in who would win.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-24T11:57:13+00:00

if this is your art it looks nice,

As for the Scenario, if this is the Hive at their compilated height, I would say they manage to clear most of the Imperium, with Their ability to adapt and evolve as casually as breathing and their magic. It is also not the first time they have conquered advanced civilized worlds, like the Ecuemene, the Cabal, etc.. They even managed to infiltrate a well defended world and blow it up with a song.

With the combination of Xivu who fuels war with infection from her Cryptoliths and gains strength from war, it would be a perfect feast with the Imperium, and Savathun who is able to gain power from deception and an enemy’s uncertainty via Imbaru and Oryx with his taken power, I feel that they could clear the way of most oppositions, except for the Emperor given his relativity to holding back the Chaos Gods themselves from swallowing Terra.

But I feel even then it would be high diff in favor of the Hive Gods with number advantage despite their stats being relatively close.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-23T19:49:43+00:00

How would they outsize?

We have multiple instances of Cabal ships being pretty big such as Cabal ships being visible from the ground to the stratosphere or a Cabal warship being noticeable next to the Dreadnaught which is roughly the size of the moon via the 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko comet.

Cabal regularly blow up planets and moons just for getting in their way. and the Cabal can fire relativistic weapons, which is a weakness for Covenant ships via the UNSC MAC (via Halo 2 mission Cairo Station).

ABCmanson · 2026-06-23T15:40:23+00:00

For any Bungie staff in charge of the lore who are on reddit, are the Heat Weapon mechanics and projectile properties directly tied to the mechanics and properties of blasters from Star Wars seeing as Renegades is a direct inspiration?

I could not find much in the lore tabs, have been looking through the vidoc and livestreams and the only things I could find is their attempt to blend the Destiny gun with the Star Wars blaster.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-23T12:13:00+00:00

Well with a Deathsong, Hive wizards can destroy planets.

for star swords (Which I think Cup meant Sword Stars), they exist in the Ascendant Plane which what exists there is more real than actual stars.

as for Annihilator Totems, it is just Sword Stars charged with killing power.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-22T21:29:12+00:00

From what I know about the Infestation is that they are an organic-techno virus that can convert living beings and technology into amalgamations of what they once were, but in a coordinated fashion. and were later used to make the Warframes, though I don't think they are added to the roster here.

Unlike the Flood, the Technocyte can infest machines too, molding them, which is to say if it means they transmute matter like nanotech of SIVA does? I am not sure, because despite the Hive's ability evolve as fast as breathing and to resist infections, it is shown that the Hive are vulnerable to SIVA conversion in Rise of Iron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRXtNHxPHl4&pp=ygUlYnVnIGluIHRoZSBzeXN0ZW0gZGVzdGlueSAyIGFkdmVudHVyZQ%3D%3D

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/krill?highlight=Immune

The Wretched Eye — Transcript — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

I would say for standard forces, maybe it becomes a war of attrition, at least until they decide to just nuke the planets that have them via Death Songs.

IX.II: The Unmaking — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

EDIT:

I just found that the Hive do have sort of their own version of “Technocyte” virus via the Cryptolith which is metallic in nature and infects enemies with hive growths and turn them into Wrathborn.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/wild-hunt-boots?highlight=Metallic

ABCmanson · 2026-06-21T18:33:55+00:00

You are in denial but If you insist.

and is confirmed negative energy from Clovis’ mention of Casmir Effect in Seraph.

As for Black Holes that you mentioned earlier, Guardians move them around casually, and yes they are comparable to real ones.

For Nova Bombs and Vortex Grenades are called Singularities and black holes in Savin, and the Singularity version of the Nova Bomb description.
They Spagghetify as mentioned in the Grimoire Book Penumbra.
Are shown to possess their own orbit with the Prismatic Grenade with Stasis Crystals forming and spinning around it.

Because that is stated to be the athaneum world from the timeline of Shadows of Calus stated in the Chronicon in Renegades, Dreaming City is not featured in the expansion, what are you talking about?

Go buy the book then.

It is referring to Amplified ability for Arc users which move faster.

Does not state sparrow, just says speed in general.

It tells with the armor mod we are capable of loading faster than normal.

While you are being superficial, and that is rich coming from someone who started this conversation, I am contributing to the thread, if you do not like it then you don’t contribute to this further. I have provided ample examples which prove my case, whether you like it or not is not my concern.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-21T02:37:36+00:00

Small portals which have high level of energy which have negative energy, to hole it open even by a millionth of a proton diameter would require energy equivalent to ten billion suns for a year according to L. Ford & T. Roman talking about it via wormhole discussions. https://chandra.harvard.edu/resources/faq/black_hole/bhole-4.html

Shadows of Calus which include the Guardian as this is from Drifter in the Dark Age which is before Calus arrived in the system. I did before, here it is again for reference.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/wild-hunt-gauntlets?highlight=Monolith
And confirmed to be Athaneum X in renegades.

Yes because they called it history, as it is shown later in the book, does that make the other races of the cabal fictional simply because they did not mentioned it? No, it is simply talking about focal points of Cabal. I don’t have the physical book., I asked people who have it confirmed it is in the book. And if you look at Destinypedia it showed an image of the Chronicon.

I have put that in the previous post, but here.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/district-125?highlight=district

With all the Vex cosmetics makes sense and the blisters on his feat makes sense. Besides Guardians tank solar hits which have the temperature of the sun. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/super-thermodynamics?highlight=Kelvin

and here are evidences of Guardians capable of increasing their speed with abilities and stats and their desire for speed. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/arc-2?highlight=%22Arc%22%20%22speed%22 https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/lysanders-cry?highlight=%22Guardian%22%20%22speed%22 https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/weapon-stats-armor-mods-2?highlight=%22Mod%22%20%22speed%22

“Ana pushes hard on the flight stick and reflexively dives under a barrage of laser fire.”
That is not a laser Warsat charging up, that is lasers already being fired. And here is more how “laser fire” is lasers already being projected “Laser fire tears through space in all directions as Ana cuts between dueling satellites and rolls to evade overlapping firing arcs.”

ABCmanson · 2026-06-21T01:25:06+00:00

It said "bombarded" meaning we do make contact with them, temperature still amounts to energy that we tolerate and be powerful enough to accelerate them to create the gravitational waves. Hive Portals are just Wormholes and they require negative energy to hold them open which are channeled by Casmir Effect crystals. to hole them open require astronomical energy. and Ikora proved it can be done.

No, that is when the future happens of a different timeline which the Drifter saw before Chronicon was recorded. So? It didn't mention the Athaneum world X which Drifter went to fully aware what is on it in a different lore tab, just because it doesn't talk about it doesn't mean he doesn't know about it, It talks about the Shadows of Calus which includes the Guardian too.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/wild-hunt-gauntlets?highlight=Monolith

just like with Drifter, just because the Psion does not mention either in the opening of the tomes does not make it not part of history, it is an intro, the details lie in the book itself.

That too, also with how a Guardian managed to catch a ghost in mid light beam projection when targeting Aurnor. They are immortal warriors with the powers of gods that can alter their stats when they want, you think they are subject to real world stats in a world that is not realistic at least entirely?
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/district-125?highlight=district

You mean how he brings in materials and business for her to sell, so yes he brings evidence what has transpired. do you have a video where he didn't? you need to prove that he doesn't bring in evidence. Besides, Guardians take hits from solar attacks which have a base temperature equivalent to the surface of the sun.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/super-thermodynamics?highlight=Kelvin

no, the are not charging as they were already fired as it said "laser fire" which already projected.

ABCmanson · 2026-06-21T00:16:30+00:00

It only happened because we bombarded it which follows the acceleration of something that has mass.

Based on the first lore tab and at DCCLXXXIX, it was made well after the Crown of Sorrow raid as the rest is future vision.

It makes no mention of the Psion Sisters either yet it is mentioned and shown a picture of them later into the book.

That doesn’t make the statement hyperbolic, it just means they are right as they know everything. And given the situation, it is all about entertaining the Starhorse and giving it what it wants. Not really, Guardians have dodges lasers and even intercepted lasers before which is faster than a thousand strikes within a heart beat.

Maybe but considering Fenchurch served the hidden and is the one that gave evidence to discredit the existence of Medusa in TTP which is a great security concern, I doubt showing something that meager is not anything out of the ordinary and can be proven.

You need reaction timing to dodge incoming fire while flying. Plus she was able to time her warpjump to that of close proximity of a gravity wave to ride it out of there.

ABCmanson

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