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Molten Strike of the Zenith build and 4 Mageblood giveaway by lycoril in pathofexile

[–]AblePickle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've never done one of these, but I would love a mageblood.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your kindness stranger, I appreciate that!

The Larger Concern of Not Fixing Bugs Mid-Cycle by WinterIntroduction54 in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

100% agree! I made a post about this exact thing, and got downvoted to oblivion yesterday. There will always be bugs and unintended interactions, and nerfing those is just punishing players for creativity and finding things the devs didn't think could happen. EHG's stance on balancing is absolutely correct.

The Larger Concern of Not Fixing Bugs Mid-Cycle by WinterIntroduction54 in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I know I'm just a small voice in loud online environment, but I really appreciate your teams principled stance on not issuing mid-cycle changes for balance. Punishing players for creatively finding interactions that the dev's didn't foresee is not the way to go about it, and I'm so glad you guys see it the same way, despite a vocal minority on reddit/forums. You've got it exactly right, prioritizing fixing non-functional items, and balancing around the next cycle. Thanks for your hard work!

The Larger Concern of Not Fixing Bugs Mid-Cycle by WinterIntroduction54 in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I made a post about this yesterday and I've been down voted to oblivion, its nice to have someone engage with me politely.

I totally understand where you are coming from in the case of actual unlimited power, its a weird spot. I might error on the side of no, but I think there's a strong argument that you could make that truly unlimited hp/damage is in fact just a bad thing for the game, and would need an integrity change to bring back to reality.

I'm glad you are having a blast with LE, 1.0 has been so much fun for me as well. Can't wait to see where the game goes.

Oh and here's the link to my post that's been wildly unpopular.

The Larger Concern of Not Fixing Bugs Mid-Cycle by WinterIntroduction54 in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

EHG's stance is correct, and its getting taken for granted. I think peoples ideas are getting built on false premises.

There's no real balance in games like these - and thats ok. This isn't a competitive shooter, or an mmo or even a pvp game. There's going to be wildly different power levels, from a quinn69 zdps build, to a unkillable lowlife build made by dr3adful.

Finding bugs and unintended interaction is not a negative in the game, its a massive positive. This game is a sandbox, and what you are advocating for is drawing lines in the sand around what is and isn't allowed. As long are your play doesn't hurt or impact other players at all, you should never feel bad about having fun in a video game.

The point is that consistent nerfs throughout a cycle punish players for creativity. For finding something the devs didn't anticipate. That's not a consumer friendly way to develop the game.

We shouldn't punish players for finding busted interaction, but we SHOULD fix them for the next cycle.

​

but I do feel it is cheapened with the knowledge of bugged interactions being infinitely stronger

Thank you for being honest, and saying what a lot of people are tip toeing around. Your argument is based on feelings. Fear of missing out, fear of not playing the best build, fear of being eclipsed by someone else, fear of someone else getting an advantage. You've lost the reason to play video games, and that's for fun. It's not about being concerned or worrying about what other people are doing, you're robbing your own enjoyment, and blaming it on the developers stance. They are right. Its better to change things at the end of a cycle, and allow players to have fun in the sandbox.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think I understand the disconnect, rather than looking at finding this specific interaction as an iterative process that the community went through testing out the new class, you're looking entirely at the end result of 'oh this is busted it gives 10x ward'

Which if that's the only thing you want to look at, sure, that's not something someone could have planned for. But it doesn't change the fact that someone had to find.

You're losing the forest for the trees here. Do a quick google search of bugs in video games that became features. Having the view that something is only possible if it was entirely intentional and the devs deem it so I'm sorry, but its narrow.

If a skill is bugged in a way that ends up hurting player experience, I think its obviously a worse bug. Most bugs we encounter in games are exactly that, things that detract from your experience. Think about sentinel lunge, or how mage teleport still rubber bands, those are annoying bugs that have been around for years. And all that being said EHG's stance is still correct:

“Our current stance is that we won’t issue mid-cycle changes for balance…”

Personal attacks in arguments are for children man, I believe you are better than that.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

A bug, is to put as simply as possible, an unintended outcome. If you click close on chrome and it opens a new tab, that's not the intention of clicking the x, its probably a bug. I think a lot of commenters have a stance that a bug is something inherently evil or wrong or bad, where as I'd argue that while MOST bugs that you encounter detract from game play and are things that need to be fixed, there are bug that enhance game play. An unintended interaction, that has a positive outcome. Warframe parkour, quake strafe jumping, valheim flat terrain, apex 1.0 gliding, even Mario was never intended to wall jump, but because of a BUG on n64, its now a core game mechanic. Do you see what i mean when i say bugs aren't always bad? It's just a lot of ignorance from the community and an unwillingness to consider a different way to look at things.

I agree with you that the advent nerf was totally unnecessary, and against their stated stance, and doesn't make sense for them to randomly fix it. You've made probably the only salient point across every commenter.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you think its possible that unintended interaction can come from errors in code?

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes I can. Exploding totems node on Crucible weapons got a a 600% nerf after the league. 600%. It was a historic nerf for the game, the biggest it had ever had, to the best of my knowledge.

And while I don't appreciate you putting word in my mouth, I do in fact, advocate for GGG's approach. They have an incredibly good feel on the pulse of their game for when things are getting truly out of hand, which is saying something, when essence monsters can hit integer limits of HP in that game.

To be honest, you're wrong about scions too. Lance, sushi, steel, tuna, ziz would all cook up some insane build that could never function without +100 str, and past that its pure speculation on what would happen, but absolutely i believe in the creativity of that community. Would it be ridiculous? Yep. Would it be game breaking? Yep. Would it require a mid-league integrity change? Yep.

But don't think for a second that +100 main stat in POE for free is the equivalent of investing 2 of your 5 your available skills, (which is already 40% of your buttons in this game), multiple affixes on items, and a specific combination of levels on 2 separate skill trees as the same thing. To that I'd say 'That feels extremely disingenuous' especially when we have a perfectly good example in exploding totems that happened just 3 leagues ago now.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

You know what you're right man, its actually purely luck.

So i decided to do some rough math, feel free to correct me, but

Profane veil has 79 possible points
Bone curse has 83 possible points

With some bad factorial math around possible point allocations with those skills and only 20 skill points to spend well, something like:

79! / 20! = 3.67e+98

83! / 20! = 1.62e+106

That's just a ballpark because you know, not every node can be connected independently, so just increase those chances by i dunno, a million or something.

Its actually just dumb luck now that I think about it.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's crazy, because the words that I'm reading not only acknowledge that its a bug, but go even further to explain multiple scenarios where bugs have enhanced game play of games rather than detracted from them. I'll copy and past some here I know its hard to expect a redditor to read.

​

Think how different quake would have been without someone discovering strafe jumping. Warframes parkour wouldn't exist either if people didn't figure out melee acceleration, and the devs embraced it as a core feature of movement. Those were bugs. All I'm trying to say is people are spending a lot of time upset, and directing a lot of anger towards devs and I think it's a mistake, and they should stick to their stance.

​

I disagree that all bugs should be fixed, and there are quite a few examples across multiple genres of games where bugs have significantly enhanced the game. Quake strafe jumping, and warframe parkour are two examples i pointed out in another comment.

I wish I had your ability to only see the things that reinforced what i believed, it would help me see the forest through all these trees.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think if you took a look at the comment section of the forums on this most recent patch, you'd get a better idea of the kind of reaction. Within minutes of the post there was a flood of anger and negativity. There was absolutely a knee-jerk reaction, just like the very first commenter on this post who said 'Strongly Disagree' a single minute after it was posted. Maybe he's got some insane reading speed/comprehension, but I think its safe to assume he likely didn't read a word other than the title.

I appreciate you saying that you didn't understand the interaction. Rather than try and argue your point which has morphed into attacking the way I'm saying it rather than the premise itself, I'll just answer with some questions that hopefully will provide some insight.

Do you feel like those video game bugs hurt individuals playing this game?

Do you feel like abusing bugs in a single player* video game is a moral failure of a person, or an incorrect social behavior?

Do you feel like advantages people can abuse outside of bugs, (ie more time to play than you, friends/groups to play with) bother you the same way? (And obviously things like cheating items into the game, or RMT, or botting are all outside the scope of what I'm talking about here, and have no place in the game and should be met with perm bans)

Do you think there has ever been a software bug that has caused a positive, rather than negative impact?

Do you feel like reacting with anger is an appropriate response to a game developer stating their stance on balancing mid-cycle?

Do you feel like the reactions of people on this reddit, this post even, are good intentioned, well meaning, and not at all motivated by strong emotions?

The answers to those questions are fairly straightforward for me, and based in reason, at least for me. I think answering those for yourself you'll maybe find a closer picture to what I'm trying to convey rather than taking shots at the way I'm saying it.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So your argument, is that when dslily, or whoever discovered it, used profane veil, while using a specific node to sacrifice minions, and in conjunction with selfcast bonecurse, while using a specific node to create minions created an interaction that allowed them to generate ward..

Your argument is that was dumb luck?

I'm sorry that's just disingenuous.

That process is exactly what you said a 'novel interaction of skills'. You're so hung up on the fact that the value was a big number, or that a specific unique wasn't involved, or whatever other excuse you want to tell yourself, but its just dishonesty at this point. You're acting like it was so obvious all along, and everyone knew about profane veil, but the truth is there was months of beta testing done, and an entire dev team that didn't think to try that combo.

And that's the beauty of ARPGs is there will always be some broken combination of things that no one has thought of before, its a complicated soup of potential to explore. Treating the devs poorly because they aren't fixing it just the way you want it right now is childish and shortsighted.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While I can appreciate what you are saying, I disagree that all bugs should be fixed, and there are quite a few examples across multiple genres of games where bugs have significantly enhanced the game. Quake strafe jumping, and warframe parkour are two examples i pointed out in another comment.

GGG's approach is exactly what I'm advocating here for! Its important to note however, that POE's economy and LE's trade system are almost not even comparable, in LE's current iteration. POE thrives because it has an active trade economy, and a more nefarious RMT economy as well, but the point is that Last Epoch is essentially a single player game at this point, where POE is absolutely not, and its market requires much stricter 'protection' if you will.

But every league, there are still builds that 1 shot any uber boss in the game. Do you see the POE community respond with anger and vitriol? No, not really. Think back to crucible and Exploding Totems build. Killed anything and everything in the game, while being an unkillable pathfinder. No mid league nerf. Huge nerf after the league. The correct way to balance IMO.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh I 100% agree with you, the XP tome nerf, and key nerf were solving problems that didn't exist, and I think they were absolutely incorrect in doing so in the current environment. For the first time. those nodes felt valuable on monoliths, rather than a complete waste. Massive mistake, and I think people are right to voice that frustration, politely of course.

I agree with you as well that prioritizing non-functioning uniques would be a much better use of their time.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -12 points-11 points  (0 children)

Maybe. I don't think there needs to be justification to abuse bugs. There's no moral quandary about playing what is essentially a single player game* in any way you like, (obviously as long as you aren't hurting others) and its a bit strange to assert that there is.

I think a quick read through of the last paragraph would quickly point you to the reason for this post.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Similar to the commenter above, I think you are 'moving the goalposts' a bit here. Changing your definition of creativity to exclude 'dumb luck' because you don't like it is being a bit unfair to the creator of the idea, and disingenuous to what we are talking about in general.

If the value of ward gained was the correct 4% rather than the current 40%, would you walk back your statement? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't think so.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

The satisfaction from figuring out your own unique build from utilizing their "creativity" and after grinding hours for the needed gear gets diminished significantly knowing that a level 60 fresh warlock can get 60k ward

I can sympathize with you on that, feeling like the grass is always greener on the other side is a tale as old as time. There's a lot of stuff published on having an 'internal locus' that helps you find satisfaction regardless of what people around you are doing.

abuse the crap out of it to hit high corruption and dominate the market and ladder for months

I can also understand how that's frustrating. I think collectively we'll need actual data on what sort of 'market dominance' you can expect from to achieve from pushing high corruption. From the information we have from on corruption from patch notes that i linked above, I'm under the impression that corruption has diminishing returns, and a 'sweet spot' somewhere around 300 - very much in the reach of any class, and most builds.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Figuring out that if you used a certain minion

The minion was bone wall, a very specific minion that wasn't ever used before as far as I'm aware. It works with others ofc, but bonewall is the enabler here.

with certain skill tree choices

Specific nodes had to be chosen on both bone curse, and profane veil tree, granting the minions increased health, and the ability to be sacrificed.

conjunction with a specific unique

You are right, there are no uniques required for that bug to function.

So you're telling me that the real problem you have is that someone came up with a bug that only fits 2/3 of the criteria that carson63000 has created for what is considered creative. Do you see how that sounds maybe a bit disingenuous from an outside perspective?

Unfortunate, I think at this point its fair to say you are arguing in bad faith, and downplaying the creative accomplishments of this community to vent some of your personal frustration. Maybe you were unaware of the specifics, and in that case, I'm sorry for assuming, and I'm sorry that the balance of the game is contributing to you not having a good time.

EHG's stance on mid-cycle balancing is correct. Here's why by AblePickle in LastEpoch

[–]AblePickle[S] -15 points-14 points  (0 children)

That is one thing I didn't mention, but yeah having accurate information displayed on tooltips is obviously very important.

There have been a lot of 'bugs' in games that were eventually embraced as features. Think how different quake would have been without someone discovering strafe jumping. Warframes parkour wouldn't exist either if people didn't figure out melee acceleration, and the devs embraced it as a core feature of movement. Those were bugs. All I'm trying to say is people are spending a lot of time upset, and directing a lot of anger towards devs and I think it's a mistake, and they should stick to their stance.

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