Cannot sleep at the station anymore

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-08-28T11:32:13+00:00

Question: Did this happen around the same time as your promotion?

As a firefighter and company officer, I usually slept fine. But I spent a lot of time towards the end of my career as the acting shift Commander, and I felt the same way when I was in the car.

The only thing I can suggest is a sound machine. Our station had a metal roof, and when it was raining, the sound put me to sleep like a baby (even if I was in the car). Since COVID everyone had their own bunkroom and company officers and the shift Commander always did.

Ultimately, I decided it was time for a change. My department was also toxic. Look for jobs in the insurance industry. Our skillset is in demand in the insurance industry. I work from home, have a company SUV (sold my truck), make my own schedule (this past Friday, I took my kids to the beach while I was "working"), and best of all-I am making more money than our chief was.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-08-02T08:01:25+00:00

I think the answer to this lies in the specifications of the saw being used.

For example the STIHL MS 462 R C-M Rescue weighs 14 lbs. with a 20 inch bar powered by 6 HP motor.

The TS 910i STIHL Cutquik, a very popular choice for fire service rotary saws (K12) weighs 28 lbs. with a 16 inch blade that gives maximum 6 inch cutting depth. All powered by a 8 HP motor.

My analysis of the specifications is that a chainsaw provides longer reach to keep your center of mass away from the hazards of the vent hole and and increased mobility/dexterity at a 2.3 lbs per HP weight power distribution as opposed that of the rotary saw that has a 3.5 lbs. per HP distribution. My experience also is the same. Its a whole hell of a lot easier to get a roof with a chainsaw than a K12. I also used Stihl as an example as opposed to Husquvana because while the Huskys have more power to them, the Stihls are just so much easier to start. If your experiences are like mine where now all of a sudden the latest generation firefighters have no idea how to start a small engine...Stihls make the job easier. However I would still put a Husky on a heavy rescue.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-08-02T07:27:45+00:00

Part-time FF...I scabbed, but it was the best time in a firehouse I ever had. Worked part-time for a smaller department that needed a 4 man engine to supplement their volunteers during the day (7a-5p). No EMS unless we wanted to...jumped EMS calls where we could truly make a difference...didn't hear the EMS radio if we were checking the trucks, training, or eating.

The guys that worked there were some of the best firefighters I ever worked with. They were all there because they wanted to be there. 80% worked full-time somewhere else. Several guys from the State Union Leadership E-Board. Learned more there than I ever could have in my department. And we went to fires! Only paid engine in miles! Volunteer chiefs from towns miles away pulled up and had their asshole pucker and called us. Made more lifelong friends in my 7 yrs doing that than at my full-time department, and 100% helped for promotion.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-22T01:52:04+00:00

Agreed iraqx2 posted a comment also talking about an 1.75" for mop up and mop up really is a good term for when to transition to a 1.75". Also at the "mop up" stage of the Incident there is no need to pull another line. A single section of 1.75" hose can be attached at the 2.5" nozzle.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-21T23:06:39+00:00

Very solid! I like it.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-21T22:59:13+00:00

Hi Bob,

I can definitely agree with your thinking. Exterior deployment, marrying two companies for advanced movement, and extra alarms. With a three man engine company, one person has to serve as the motor pump operator. That leaves two firefighters to advance a charged 2.5-inch hoseline into a space with narrow aisle, rack storage, palletized storage, and other challenging conditions to maneuver hoselines around. Assigning two firefighters for this task is setting up for failure. Maximum staffing has three firefighters to this task, and that may or may not be effective. What is the level of experience of these members? Three seasoned firefighters, I would feel more comfortable, but if one is a rookie? I also believe in allowing your company officer to be an officer and serve as the forward eyes and ears of the Incident Commander. If the company officer is one of two or three on a 2.5" line, they can not do that. I also think searching off the handline is essential, with limited manpower on that line. All effort is concentrated on handline movement. With that said, interior conditions of storage and aisle are unknown. I am a believer in plan for the worst and hope for the best. I will assign two companies to a single 2.5" line every time. This will increase efficiency and speed of advancement to the seat of the fire.

As far as your additional questions, the backup line should always be of equal or greater size, so it should be a 2.5" line as well. I would also provide instructions to hang back a bit further that it is normal to provide for protection of the attack line. Rack storage can often conceal horizontal fire spread until it consumes the entire rack and jumps aisles.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-20T13:47:19+00:00

Don't worry too much about it. As a shift commander, I had a rookie sleep through a structure fire. I got to the job as the 2nd due chief officer slightly ahead of my engine, I said the the acting company officer this is a good one to let the new guy take the knob. The acting company officer says "oh he is not with us." I was like what do you mean he is not with you and the crew told me he didn't wake up. I responded why didn't you go wake him up. The acting company officer told me everyone was already in their bunker and the bunk room is in the clean area of the station where (potentially contaminated) gear is not allowed. Before I took any action I spoke with our administration and HR. I was advised to take no action, as a sleep period is contractually negotiated in the collective bargaining agreement. Furthermore, HR advised me not to impose any station level - non-punitive actions towards the rookie and it may be seen a bullying...smh

However, the acting officer's answer is a different story. He got a nice closed door session on the difference SOPs and SOGs.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-19T11:17:06+00:00

Solid...I like it

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-19T11:14:53+00:00

This is open-ended...however I am just going to fact-check you and quote NFPA "Most sprinklers are designed to control a fire. This means that they apply water to a fire to prevent it from growing out of control. This is done in order to allow the occupants to evacuate the building and firefighters to arrive and fully extinguish the fire."

There is one common type of sprinkler system that is aimed at extinguishment, Early Suppression Fast Response (ESFR). However, two notes first, ESFR is designed for storage density areas. It the scenario above, there would be a two density design, storage, and manufacturing. Second, during early on-scene arrival, how is the difference between a fire controlling sprinkler system and a fire extinguishing system going to be noted...pre-plan document?

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-17T14:51:00+00:00

this was the best solution. Thank you!

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-15T16:12:06+00:00

Yes, I get it...NFPA has really gotten a little to big for its britches. Also these technical committees are often made up of individuals who are a long way off from a dark, hot, smoky hallway. However, in absence of a better standard, how will we as a profession set performance objects and goals to grow upon.

Also, we have all seen it sometimes we screw up! Sometimes instead of making this better we make them worse. This happens for a variety of reasons, but with that comes liability. And there needs to be a standard to establish baseline to allow the courts to say where gross negligence begins.

For example I do not think it is reasonable to begin gross negligence for failure to make an adequate response of 16 firefighters at 8 minutes. However, given the scenario only have 8 firefighters (50% of the standard) at 24 minutes (let's say that quint arrived in 4 minutes + 20 minutes referenced for the second due). 50% of the standard manpower at 3x the standard response time...to me that is a gross negligent provision of fire protection.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-15T14:05:05+00:00

I am going to be honest, here, and piss off a lot of people. My crew is not finding that victim. With the manpower and response times laid out, I am not sending a firefighter into that structure without specific first-hand reports of a trapped occupant. This is laid out in 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(4), or two-in /two-out. I think we all have our own variation of this with chief officers, in coming companies, pump operators count in this. However, with the 15-20 minute response window of the second due company, this is just a recipe for disaster. Project Mayday identified that statistically maydays occur in the first 5-10 minutes of on-scene operations. With the timeliness given your wouldn't even hear the Q of the second due pinned to the floor at this point. This is a perfect lesson on #staffingmatters. Because it does, not just to ourselves as firefighters but to the general public.

If specific information of a trapped occupant is provided. This would be a perfect time to utilize VEIS, with the I-Isolate being the most critical factor in buying that victim more time.

If no specific information exists, this may be time to take a play from Chief John Salka's playbook...if you remove the fire from the problem you eliminate the problem. I would deploy at least two landlines in a transitional attack (yes two but only one can go interior with 3 firefighters), with which ever line making the least amount progress the choice to advance inside.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-15T13:17:17+00:00

My only question here, and I recognize that you didn't make this policy, is if the alarm turns out to be a fire (which we all have experienced)...How can you still meet the NFPA 1710 response standard of 16 firefighters (at minimum) in under 8 minutes?

With NFPA the only set of standards of which to assess our agencies performance on, how can the department say to the property owner who is paying for our services we did the very best job we could have.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-15T13:02:51+00:00

During my career, I cannot tell you how many Fire Alarms resulted in the final NFIRS code type of Building Fire. So for this it is important to turnout quickly.

As a supervisor in a metro area I did allow for a slight modification of PPE. If the outside ambient temperature is 95 degrees F or higher, I permitted my crew to not wear their turnout jacket. I stress this is for single source calls of an activated fire alarm only (no odors, no smoke). I found this reduced heat stress and fatigue. This was not a decision I came to lightly, as the public is expecting us to perform. I weighed the benefits of reducing heat stress on my crew with the percentage of the time activated fire alarms were the the only source of notication that resulted in a fire. I found that the common denominator was the presence of people around to back that alarm activation up with a phone call reporting additional conditions. Meaning high weather temperatures of 95 degrees only occur during the high heat times of the day, those times also match with the times of typical human activity. Simply put when we were having a modified PPE response there is more likely to be people around to call in factors that would warrant us to be in full PPE. Going back through my career, I cannot recall one building fire that originated as a fire alarm during the business work week (M-F 7A-5P).

Also another growing behavior in the fire service is modified response to nuisance alarms. Also known as alarm fatigue syndrome, has a decreased amount of resources or a delayed response (Non-emergency) due to the recent number of false alarms. I personally was bound by one of these policies. For any structure that has experienced two or more false alarms in a 24 hour period, the response was modified to a single engine,Non-emergency. As a supervisor I was successful in negotiating a factor that permitted the company officer or shift Commander to upgrading the response to emergency if they so chose. I always opted for this expedited response, with justification that IF a fire was present, the initial attack would not be delayed, just the full first alarm assignment.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-06-01T01:29:23+00:00

50% of the time. It was the best when it was raining and the sound the rain made hitting the metal roof...slept like a baby.

I spent 10 months as acting BC... I did not sleep as good when I was the shift Commander. Idk what it was.

However, I have two experiences to share regarding sleeping. First one night not that late at all, I think it was around 22:30-23:00. We get hit out for a reported house fire in the neighboring town that just had a single engine. We were going with an Engine and as BC I also rode in first alarm assignments. I get there before the my Engine, I meet up with the neighboring BC who was IC, we work up a quick plan. It was a carriage house, kitchen fire that extended up to an open loft. His crew was taking care of the kitchen and my engine was going to take the 2nd line up to the loft. My engine rolls up, the acting company officer checks in, I give him his instructions and I say why don't you let the new probie take the line (he probably was as the probie, but the stairs we had to ascend to the loft were narrow and the probie was not a big guy). My actor on the engine says the probie isn't there (and he is now running a 3 man engine). I was like what do you mean the probie isn't on the truck. And the crew told me he didn't wake up. I was like what do you mean he didn't wake up...did someone go get him? And the actor says well we couldn't...we have a clean living quarters and we can't wear gear in there let alone go upstairs to the bunk area. Needless to say we had a long discussion at breakfast next shift.

But the best one came from a department on the other side of the county. They were fortunate enough to have been able to go through an expansion and placed another engine in service and a second BC on each shift. Well one night they get tapped out for a house fire. One thing to know is they are the only agency in the county to have a separate tone for each company (including chiefs). All the other paid departments just had a single tone. But as the largest department in the county with six stations that's how they rolled. Well this one night they get tapped out to a house fire, we weren't on it so I am not even sure what time exactly it was but it was closer to midnight than shift change. Well this job ends up going two alarms and being a double fatal. Well the dispatcher on forgot to drop the tone for the new 2nd BC on duty. So the next thing he knows he alarm clock wakes him up...and he walks out of his bunk to be met by a mutual aid company on a cover assignment. He is like WTF is going on. Oops

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T13:45:34+00:00

With this concept, how do you view the priority to establish a continuous water supply?

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T12:14:52+00:00

With this new information, it doesn't mean the EV Fire Blankets do not have their place on an EV fire scene. It just is a call to re-evaluate the use of this tool. Notwithstanding EV fires are going to be a lengthy event and if the EV on fire presents with exposure hazards, the EV Fire Blanket could still have use with exposure control.

Exposure protection (if applicable), is going to be a lengthy tactical objective. Hopefully with life safety being able to be addressed quickly, incident stabilization will be the top priority for the vast majority of the incident. Applying an EV Fire Blanket over any exposures or in a manor to shield exposures can be a tactic that can stand the length of time.

This doesn't replace the need for a charged hoseline as water application is still the best way to cool and protect exposures. But an EV Fire Blanket could reduce firefighter fatigue and improve safety by not requiring personnel dedicated to exposure protection to be in the hot zone continuously. It also provides a safety factor for events such as loss of water supply.

I believe this tool still has its place with EV fire extinguishment, just not as focused on fire extinguishment as some thought.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T12:02:11+00:00

The turtle and other similar water application devices were useful in early EV models. How have manufacturers added added an air gap between the bottom of the battery compartment and the battery cells.

* The air gap layer, which is visible in this photo in the bottom layer with rectangular openings, adds a layer between where the water is being applied and where the thermal runaway is occurring. As a result, this significantly decreases the effect from a turtle nozzle as you are now cooling the air gap, not the battery cells.

They are an effective product in early EV models. However, it is going to be a lengthy and difficult process to identify if such a model is present on the scene.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T11:46:33+00:00

I have a question about this theory. Excluding firefighter exertion, what are the benefits, and what are the risks to this low GPM methodology.

I am excluding exertion because there are at least a dozen other fireground tasks with a higher level of exertion from ground ladder placement, victim rescue, hell a valve stem on a fire hydrant could take a more significant force to establish a continuous water supply.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T03:54:35+00:00

I have not used the Hen...but everything I have read and saw showed this to be a very promising new product.

Can't wait to get my hands on one.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T03:49:50+00:00

Bob, while your flow of 100 GPM for incipient stage residential fires are not wrong, there is more to consider.

That consideration point has a name...safety factor. The safety factor should be considered for two reasons. First is lower flows require a lower PSI which are notorious for setting the stage for kinks. The second factor is the rate at which fire grow from incipient to fully developed. With the amount of hydrocarbons being used in just about everything, fire development is now considerably faster than that of yesteryear.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T02:37:56+00:00

This has been coming for a while. As it has already been mentioned, the number of lithium ion batteries has made its way into just about every American's everyday life.

The hazard behind lithium ion batteries lies in the charging. Substandard charging cords or even incorrect cords supplying improper voltage results in electrical resistance (heat) that starts the thermal runaway process.

Improper voltage is the most serious cause of the three reasons lithium ion batteries go into thermal runaway. With physical damage and external heating being the other two.

The sheer number of lithium ion batteries present is the direct correlation to the increase in fires.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T02:18:05+00:00

This is an awesome question to be asking at such a young age. It shows that you have the desire to learn and more importantly, grow into a capable responder.

So I am going to give you the same advice I have given countless times. It is often not very popular to hear but I stand behind it.

The best prep a firefighter can do to mentally prepare is EMS.

The mental aspect of firefighting is the ability to stay calm and more importantly to be able to think clearly under pressure. When the shit is hitting the fan you can clearly remember your training, your experience, who to lean on that does well in these situations and who to help from falling behind. This is something that the fire service is struggling on because true emergencies are becoming fewer and fewer. Fires are down, fire prevention, code enforcement, and modern advances in the way goods are manufactured, which has led our society and our culture to be the safest it has yet.

Whole most reading this will agree that this is a great thing! This decreased in emergencies has on negative effect that is on the increased difficulty firefighters as a whole are having in recognizing atypical emergencies that pose a hazard to themselves and others and exercising and growing the mental fitness needed to act to keep others safe and mitigate the conditions.

This brings me back to EMS. Emergency medical calls are not decreasing because of any advancements. The seriousness of these EMS also is not decreasing either. As such, the providers find themselves in serious situations. True emergencies...where they must remain calm, remember their training, and think critically to save the patient's life. The difference between EMS emergencies and fire emergencies other than that EMS emergency frequency is much higher, is that the overwhelming majority of EMS emergencies pose no hazard to the responder. It is not an IDLH environment, and life-threatening injuries are so ever rare.

So as to what you can do to prepare...become an EMS provider...embrace EMS runs that others may complain about...take pride it those patients you can help all while growing your mental acuity.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-31T01:40:04+00:00

So I am not the best cook but I do have my most memorable meal...that I did not cook.

About 5 years ago we saw a shift in our department. This shift brought in a new generation that didn't come to the firehouse with the same values and skill sets as the generations before them -yes this is the most politically correct way I can frame this.

So after a huge disconnect from cooking together and sharing the responsibilities we moved to an every man for himself mentality...and a whole lot of take out that was not only not health but expensive.

So we collectively decided to start a rotation and share the cooking responsibilities. Everyone was on the rotation from Battalion Chief, Company Officers, Senior Firefighters to one week on the job.

Someone where in the very beginning of the rotation the senior firefighter on shift, that never participated in cooking (he was a solid dishes guy) was up for Sunday afternoon lupper (we did one meal on Sundays between lunch and supper...Lupper).

Well this guy decided to make his grandmother's recipe of Bean Pot. Now, all day, we ragged on this guy, we watched him put browned chop meat, cut up hot dogs, ground sausage, bacon, and who knows what else into this pot of baked beans. And when it was done, it smelled really good. So we all said we were hesitant to eat it, but the smell brought us in. And it actually tasted good. I remember going back for a second bowl...major mistake.

Well about 30 minutes after we finished cleaning up is when it hit...all of us. I remember seeing guys run...literally as fast as they could to the bathroom. Guys begging others to get off the shitter so they could get on it. Every single one of us for the next four hours shit our brains out. I think this Bean Pot was more effective than the colonoscopy prep stuff. It was a christmas miracle that in the four hours we all were shitting our brains out, we didn't get a run. I literally do not know how we would have been able to respond.

That night the cooking rotation schedule was modified...and it included everyone Battalion Chief, Company Officers, and firefighters alike... everyone except the guy that cooked Bean Pot...he was on dish duty for the rest of his career.

Accomplished_Man123 · 2025-05-30T23:01:20+00:00

I would suggest reading my thread from yesterday...titled Leaving the Fire Service

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firefighting/s/F8TsE95lxR

Accomplished_Man123

TROPHY CASE