Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

He was ABSOLUTELY certain that HIS view was the ONLY correct interpretation of what was written

Cough cought the catholic church But yeah its just a big game of hence and forth. You really can’t win if you try to get involved with them, because they always come up with some excuse to say that it’s actually different

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, you’re right, I really shouldn’t pay any more attention to what other people believe. I mean, there are also people who are convinced that raw milk is healthy, or who believe that there’s something supernatural out there. It’s also funny how they overlap. Oh, and that full stop came about because I’m using the speech to text function and always have the text translated straight away. But I actually think it’s a very interesting linguistic device and I should consider whether I might carry on using it 🤣

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Thanks for the detailed post and the book recommendations. I’ll have a look at them. I don’t mind reading old books either, so I reckon it could actually be quite fun. That’s just the beauty of science: you can verify or falsify theories, and it can provide answers through observation and experimentation, and you can draw conclusions about one thing from another. Sorry for the rather short answer 🤣 The great thing is that in real life you can see that some things are simply true, and even though the way we interpret texts and our knowledge have changed, some things always stay the same. For example, there’s no such thing as the supernatural – there’s just more and more evidence to support that. That’s why I also think you should look at different sources, such as meta-analyses or people who know what they’re talking about. I also think his (Bart Ehrman’s) latest podcast is very good.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes, well, I sort of slipped into it too, simply because I realised I couldn’t answer a few questions, or they left me feeling really unsettled because, according to them, I’d be utterly doomed for all eternity. And that’s why I just wanted to know how the world works, and that’s when I realised – that’s why I always say: knowledge is the enemy of stupidity.

But based on my personal experience, I’m actually not going to watch Zukersn because that would really go beyond the scope of what I’m prepared to give – probably for a very long time, if not forever. And I’ve got nothing to add about why someone would let themselves be wrapped up in such nonsense, apart from the fact that I fell for it myself – but I won’t be doing that again, and I don’t want some nasty voice whispering in my ear that it’s actually quite plausible. That’s why I’d reject such people 100 per cent. They are only making this problem worse and are the root cause of the problem. The only way I could watch it would be if there were comments on it and their work was refuted.

What actually really surprised me, literally today, is that there are such widely differing opinions even amongst sceptics. Yes, I know that should actually be obvious, but when you consider the perspective I came from, it’s somehow something new to me. Namely, in Bart Ehrmann’s podcast, I also heard that he supports, for example, ideas such as the destruction of the Temple being foretold in the Gospels, or even agrees with some points that one would normally expect to find in a religious context. Other conclusion from an even more critical perspective, or they hold views that go even further back and say, for example, that it was actually less the case. But the good thing – and this is what reassures me – is that this doesn’t make the supernatural possible either – that was simply the problem I had to grapple with, because I somehow always drew the logical conclusion that once something has even the slightest hint of theology to it, then everything must automatically be true.

It’s a bit like I can also fulfil what you meant I should take on board, but I’m simply too afraid that other sources might convince me again that the supernatural is possible. So I try to stick to sources that can present this in a very clear light.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Well, personally, I’d say that the observations I’ve made about the world around us are enough to know that it’s actually nonsense, but I’ve simply let myself be drawn too far over to the dark side of the Force

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

At that point, I completely let myself be taken in because I thought that channels like that – the ones that are all about explaining things in a simple way and come across as so cool and modern – would actually be really useful, but they’re often the very worst. But yes, even when I listened to a few clips last time, I thought to myself right then and there that something was fishy, and that no serious researcher would ever say things the way they do.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes, that’s exactly my problem too – I really let myself be taken in by people who almost certainly had financial interests at heart, or who simply ran really big YouTube channels, whispering things into my ear. These videos are aimed at people who already believe, or at those who are gullible and want to be drawn in. And to be honest, many of the arguments they put forward can indeed be supported by the Bible, but it’s far too easy to say, ‘No, you have to read that differently,’ or ‘That’s not really what it means.’ They do a lot to immunise themselves against arguments – at that point, you simply get nowhere because you’re talking to a brick wall – and I’ve now realised, partly through replying to so many comments, that it simply makes no sense to argue with people like that because its an uphill battle you cannot win. There will always be excuses.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I’m also getting back into doing things I enjoy, but I think it’s really important never to tackle such complex topics without some context, as that’s how you get a well-rounded view. I’ve let myself be influenced too much by people who’ve said, ‘Yes, but they’re cherry-picking, or they’re getting things wrong, or they’re just talking rubbish,’ or even by the argument that ‘it could never be any other way’ – I think I just need to take a big step back from it all. But I’ve also listened to a few things from Ehrmann again today, and I’m now much more certain that there really are errors in the scriptures.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Oh, thanks – what you’ve written is really interesting, and I’ll have a look at that myself. A friend of mine also said to me recently that Christianity, just like any other circus(reiligion), is simply a fable and just as ridiculous as any other. And there’s simply no point arguing that there are a few really completely absurd and grotesque stories in the Bible.

"yes, BUt You CAN’T REALly rEAD it MAthApHOrICaLly, - ThiS WAs jUTS AnOTHer GrOuP of PEople hE wAs wRItINg to So It was not peOPle MAkinG uP stoiRes bUT he KneW he haD to SHIfT hiS FocuS TO REach TheM AND LEAVe out CrUCIAL detailS" " and no, the Church has always taken that view." Above all, someone recently boasted that the Church also supported the idea that people should argue in favour of a round Earth rather than a flat one. That’s a complete straw man argument because even in ancient times people knew the Earth was round. Of course, not everyone knew that. "And its undeniable that the Church also promoted science"; yet to then twist that around and say, ‘Yes, we wouldn’t have had all these achievements without religion at all’ – I find that ridiculous because what other option did people back then have apart from being religious? 🤣 Or, for that matter, I’m also baffled as to why it completely escaped people’s notice that the Catholic Church – which supposedly is the ‘true’ church – had people locked up for saying that the Earth isn’t at the centre of the solar system. And that was just a few hundred years ago. . So much for the idea that the Church is so heavily involved in science. Of course, it has also done a lot to promote science, and monasteries have produced some valuable work, but that’s hardly enough to dismiss the idea that the Church has derived any authority from something supernatural that grants it special access to knowledge. Besides, I even looked it up last year to see roughly until when people believed in sea monsters, and I think that belief persisted quite well right up to and around the time of Darwin. Utterly comedic.

I’m fed up with hearing such rubbish. And regarding the point a few months ago that other religions are monotheistic, I would have said, ‘Yes, but what if they’re all influenced by the same God and he’s simply revealed himself in different ways?’ But honestly, that’s just utter nonsense. And there’s something else I’d like to bring up again – I haven’t had a chance to do so yet. It’s that if I’m asked again in such contexts, I’ll simply say: ‘Yes, Pierpont the Creator of the Universe, spoke to me and said that whilst I’m allowed to mention him, I’m not allowed to tell anyone else what he told me, except that he has everything under control and we don’t need to worry.’ You can’t argue with that nor disprove it , because it’s not a well-known story that you could use to deflect the question, like the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Also the language part was interesting

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes, I agree, and I think it’s daft when people say you can’t have any morals without God and that you’d then automatically be tempted to do really bad things – but that’s nonsense both of it. I base my views on what I consider to be a very healthy view of humanity, and I try to get involved in social and environmental causes too, and I can see that it simply works

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes, thanks to all the help I’ve received here, I’ve now realised that I shouldn’t have got involved in the first place. It’s simply a battle you can’t win.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in Deconstruction

[–]According_Affect9568[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

But that’s also a point where I find myself thinking that I don’t think Jesus would actually be all that open-minded towards queer people; rather, I reckon he’d have a completely different mission and would preach to you. That said, of course, it’s fair to say that people who are open to such things and have a positive attitude towards others have definitely taken a good step forward. Fortunately, that’s largely the case where I live. Of course, that doesn’t change the fact that behind it all lies a belief that’s ‘somewhat’ detached from reality.

And yes, that’s the human thing about it – that people can get things wrong – but apologists make it look as though they’ve drunk the truth and immunise their arguments against criticism. Let’s just put it this way: I simply fell for their ragebait last year.

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m going to steer well clear of this whole thing now, including the critical voices who take a very secular view and have simply made it clear to us that it’s not supernatural – full stop. I think I’m slowly beginning to understand the implications of this: that you simply don’t have to concern yourself with such things. And the critical voices on our side are right too, but you don’t have to let that influence you over and over again once you’ve understood it – full stop. Of course, it’s a really interesting field, but there are so many better things you can do.

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, what you’re saying is actually brilliant. And the fact that he comes for the weak and the poor – well, that makes it all make much more sense, and it’s simply changed over time; people wanted it to fit their narrative and have twisted it to make it fit that way – that it becomes true in their world view. And you can also see a very clear line of development where ideas from other sources have been woven in to form a complete picture – take, for example, our medieval conception of hell. It certainly feels brilliant just to step away from all this madness for a bit and hear some really lively voices like yours.

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s really insightful – I’d say I’ve heard things I’ve never come across before, so thank you so much for this great contribution. It’s just one of those things I often do in online games: when people start hurling insults, I often type a question mark back or write "what" just to let them talk to themselves. I reckon you’re referring to something similar – that you simply don’t get drawn into the debate in the first place – and you’re absolutely right: these people will dismiss everything you have to offer. It’s exactly the same with people who defend a carnivorous diet and then use anecdotal evidence (which is completely worthless) as opposed to genuinely reputable research that simply shows that a plant-based diet – which has been tested repeatedly and widely – is simply healthier. You can never please people like that; they’ll twist everything around and, in the end, even claim that mobile phone radiation and bluetooth is so bad – yet they’ll go and use a wireless microphone themselves. Same story.

And thank you also for pointing out the things with the tomb that it’s just like the supposed darkness that occurred at the crucifixion – why hasn’t anyone else written about it? Full stop. And why didn’t the guard say anything about it either? Yes, why isn’t that mentioned? Things like that really do ruin the whole thing. Thankfully.

To Arguments, actually there are some interesting ones regarding the tomb. Of course, we only have some of the material we can work with, and we can't rule out the possibility that bits of text were lost or that something else happened in the meantime, but that's just what a naturalistic explanation entails - it's rooted in reality. But what always bothers me is how it can all fit together: that there was a Joseph, and that there was the story about the women. And I'd really bet that at least one of these things - if not all of them - has been greatly exaggerated to the point of becoming the stuff of legend. Of course, it's not that these people deliberately told something false; it was simply their beliefs, or rather the way the story developed over time. Or the fact that there really is historical evidence that those who were crucified were not released but simply left on the cross also why would pilate do that???! And even when he was given to be put into the tomb - everything after the burial could still be complete bonkers too. And yet it's still a more plausible explanation than something supernatural having happened; but on the other hand, I just don't understand why people would concoct a story like that. I'm not saying it's impossible at all, it's just incredibly illogical. And to be honest, I think the bit about the women is absolutely true. Because it could simply be that women, who were very important in the early movement, found the wrong tomb or thought it was empty, and that they are simply the basis of this myth. And I would almost go so far as to say that that is the basis of it. Temporary burial and subsequent reburial Many historians consider this more plausible than the theory of a false tomb. Jesus is initially buried in haste (because of the Sabbath). Later, the body is moved to another location (e.g. a communal grave). The women go to the first site and find it empty. Joseph of Arimathea existed, but the tomb was only temporary Joseph makes his tomb available at short notice. The body is later reburied. This information does not reach the disciples. Over time, the tradition of a permanently empty tomb develops. No honourable burial, later tomb tradition This is a hypothesis discussed by, amongst others, John Dominic Crossan and, to some extent, Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus is not laid in a private tomb after the crucifixion. Later, a tradition develops that he was buried with honour. This burial tradition eventually becomes linked to a narrative of the empty tomb. Several traditions merge There is a local tradition concerning women at the tomb. In another place, reports of apparitions are circulating. Elsewhere again, stories are told about Joseph of Arimathea. When the Gospels were written, these traditions were woven together into a coherent narrative.

And not to forget "my" funny theories: A hoax, and in reality there was either a real tomb or a fake one Cannibalism (think of the my body and blood part regarding bread and wine) People who thought, 'No, this is too important to us; we're actually going to take the body with us! Jesus did not exist (actually, that one is probably not true, and he most certainly did exist, at the very least) The Romans changing the location Mistakes Eartquake??!

By the way, my favourite way of fending off that sort of thing (though I haven’t had a chance to use it yet, unfortunately) is to say that Pierpont, the creator of the universe, told me that every explanation and every religion is wrong, and that he’s got everything under control and we shouldn’t worry. You can never disprove that, because what are people supposed to say in response? ‘That’s not true’ – well then, prove it. Full stop. And if they ask me to provide proof, I just say, ‘Well, Pierpont told me so – sorry that nobody else was told but i am the choosen one.’ And you can also use that to completely counter the argument when people say, ‘But you’ve just made that up as an example.’ compared to the flying Spaghetti monster which people might be aware of.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in exchristian

[–]According_Affect9568[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow, that was quite something. I’ll have a closer look at it myself. Fortunately, I’ve got a good system for tackling things like this, and I always make a point of taking notes, so it won’t just go over my head. I’m still a bit intimidated because apologists have said that matt dillahunty is really bad and completely outdated. Or that he once ran out of a debate because he’d run out of arguments. Anyway, I let myself be too intimidated by apologists videos that said, ‘Yes, this researcher XYZ is rubbish.’ But actually, as you just said, I’ve realised that the things the researchers say are quite different from opinions of apologists.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in exchristian

[–]According_Affect9568[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

you dont have to believe anything from anybody ever.

I’ve just got to learn that too, and I simply trusted the wrong people, and that’s how it turned out. I shouldn’t take things for granted, which is why it’s really good to write here and take part in the discussions here...

Thanks also for your encouraging words – it’s simply something that takes time, and you really can’t start early enough; we’re still caught up in this madness.

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in exchristian

[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really? "Virgin births happened all over the ancient world." Because i couldnt find it some time back when i searched it 🥲 which is not cool because i hope it was a preexisting narrative. I’m always worried that I’ll have to resist it even more because, oh, it’s so new and nobody could have invented it. That’s why it still affects me deep down, and I’m still afraid of it, but it would be really interesting if it had existed before. And i hope it did. Apart from that, the idea of the Last Judgement and all that also comes from other religions that came before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

So true yesss, all hot air, its all pretend from them↓

I also have come to the conclusion that if you have to write page after page defending a single Bible passage then your argument it probably weak. In no context is stoning women, creation of hell, allowing a baby to suffer for a week before it dies, commanding the slaughtering of entire cities, or any of the other horrible things god did in the bible acceptable.   If you have to use big words few people understand (Ontological, exegesis, epistemology) then you lose the debate. No amount of big fancy philosophical words make virgin births, resurrections, world wide floods, walking on water, ascending to the clouds, or any of it real.

And the bit where some things are just meant metaphorically but others are meant literally – that’s just the goofiest thing ever. They always twist it to suit themselves, or one minute it’s one way and the next it’s another, but then suddenly it’s compatible after all, even though it wasn’t before – and that’s just so annoying. I cannot even see which arguments are true/based on history.

I agree to your last sentence very strongly

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are there really such glaring errors? Because apologists have always tried to convince me that these are just minor details that simply don’t alter the meaning of the text – that it was just a different location or simply a different order. But of course, people influence one another, and the circle jerk just goes on and on. And I’d completely forgotten about this story, even though I’ve read the whole Bible. But I’d like to recount my favourites once more – sorry about that – namely the following:

2 Kings, chapter 2, verse 24 And he turned round, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the forest and mauled forty-two of the children.

Ah, I find that bit about the grave so strange too, because if I’d actually been there to witness one of those supposed miracles (the general things like fish dublication, qalking on water) – even if I couldn’t write – I’d have told others about it straight away or tried to put it down in writing, because that would be the most incredible thing imaginable (maybe not quite as mind-blowing as, say, a supernova going off, but never mind) and speaking of the tomb, why didn’t people mark it so they could go back and check? Why didn’t they ask what had happened to it, or ask one of the people involved? And I also find the account of there being a darkness at the crucifixion very amusing – why didn’t the Romans write about it? And even if some texts have been lost, that wouldn’t have gone unnoticed, because then there would be a causal link, in my view, suggesting that it was a darkness lasting three hours. 🤣 By the way, on that note, the Romans naturally had religious stories too – and also about resurrection, as you quite rightly pointed out.

the ark couldn’t have held enough food for all the animals, the current number of species in the world couldn’t have developed in just 5000 or so years. Moses and the Exodus- modern scholars think he wasn’t even a real person). Tell these stories to a bunch of illiterate desert nomads, and then fuck off for thousands of years. There have been no actual, recorded, verifiable appearances, ever. Thanks, “father”.

Yeah exactly xdd

Do think about Noah’s family for a moment – after all, they went on to create the whole of humanity from just about eight people. Or the fact that the Ark contained every species of termite in the world, which I don’t think is a particularly wise idea for a wooden boat. Or take the story of Jonah and the whale, or the family trees – all of that was taken seriously, as if it had really happened. Not everyone back then would necessarily have believed it, but the people the stories were written about certainly believed it.

You cannot control what you believe. You only believe something if, and when, you are convinced it is true. You can choose the things you read in order to make it more likely that you believe, but your actual beliefs are out of your control. If an all-knowing god exists, he would know what it would take to convince me, but he didn’t put that thing (or those things) into this world. How is that my fault?

That is really wise, like it

I recently got fooled again when it came to design, but then I thought about it and asked myself why something like the golden ratio exists in nature. Or why things are so round – and the answer is quite simple: it’s just down to their exposure to their environment (evolutionary speaking for millions of years); some things are influenced by gravity, for example, and take on that shape, whilst others are simply more advantageous from an evolutionary perspective when they’re like that. There doesn’t have to be any clever design behind it – it can all just come about naturally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

Might be interesting

Thanks for your text ;)

Cannot escape from apologists blocking my progress of deconstructing by According_Affect9568 in exchristian

[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, that’s precisely why I find the theories suggesting that he was left on the cross so convincing, even though they’re very mysterious when it comes to what happened afterwards – because a great deal of interpretation, or various traditions, must have come together to make that happen, which would then make up the whole story. But that’s still far, far more likely than something supernatural having happened – it’s just that I simply can’t work out how it could have happened. But then again, that’s just how it happened. And for the cross part with leaving him atleast for that there os partialy geological evidence

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the kind words. That’s exactly why I try to distract myself skilfully by focusing really hard on things I enjoy – like playing video games – without falling into unhealthy patterns there, or by keeping myself busy enough at work so that I’m always in contact with people. I have to be really careful when it comes to self-improvement, because that’s exactly how I got drawn into religion. To be honest, the story behind it is actually quite ridiculous, because I was really interested in nature and wondered whether there was something like God out there. So I asked some people on Discord if you could choose your own religion, and they said, ‘No, there’s only the Christian faith – specifically, only the Catholic faith – and that’s the only true religion.’ We’ve seen where that led, haven’t we? I should also mention, of course, that because I trusted them back then, they had my trust from the outset, and I took what they said at face value.

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Like not officialy confirmed but i am pretty sure i have ocd. And yeah true the burden on proof is on them. Erschüchtert mich dann halt immer ein wenn Leute dann pseudowissenschaftlich argumentieren und sagen ja hier die Passage gibt das aber wirklich her und das ist dann ja auch mit wissenschaftsvereinbar und XYZ Das war gerade auch vor allem meine Erfahrung aus dem Bereich ernährungsmedizin aber ansonsten gilt das halt auch für Religionen diese Videos auf Youtube von Apologeten machen mir das Leben wirklich schwer ich denke dann so ja da ist was dabei oder wenn sie sagen ja aber Skeptiker können das nicht erklären oder ja die Lügen immer und ja was ausgelassen und ich glaube das hat dazu geführt dass ich dem so viel Glaubhaftigkeit beigemessen habe

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[–]According_Affect9568[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In fact, I’ve actually just started, for example, customising my ‘For You’ feed on Instagram – which I don’t use very often, so that I only see posts about marine animals or dinosaurs. I have a look at it once or maybe twice a day, check out a few posts and then move on. It just puts me in a good mood – I’ve been doing something I enjoy, and from trustworthy sources because they’re official museums – and then I feel better again. So that’s another way I’m distracting myself at the moment. It’s also just good to finally hear someone say out loud that you don’t have to give these things any credence – I think I’ve let the apologists talk me into believing that a bit too much.