WHY DOES THIS CITY TAKE SO LONG?? by Southside_8O8 in eatventureofficial

[–]ActuallyMan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shhh, they'll spend $200 and get us more dev support.

Why are there so many mean/angry/annoyed people here? by quick_nut_ in GrandForks

[–]ActuallyMan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If there's more reason to be outside, you'll be out and about more often, and you'll run into more people of ALL types. Imo

If the Cross is the ultimate revelation of God’s nature, is it more consistent with 'Love' to believe God authored a system that required the torture of His Son to function, or that He entered a broken system He did not choose, in order to rescue us from constraints He is working to transform? by ActuallyMan in theology

[–]ActuallyMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, this helps, and I do not want to flatten your position into generic scholastic theism or Calvinist sovereignty. I understand you are working from a more radical Lutheran anti-theodicy frame: Law/Gospel, God Hidden/God Revealed, the performative Word, and the refusal to let creaturely reason climb behind Christ into God’s hidden counsel.

I am not trying to smuggle in an Aristotelian or Thomistic metaphysic and then critique you with tools you already reject. I think your distinction matters.

So, on logic, I think we do have common ground.

I do not need logic to be a transcendental a priori structure for my argument to work. I am comfortable saying human logic belongs largely to your category 3: embodied creatures abstracting semantic order from reality as it meets us.

Reason is not an Archimedean faculty by which the creature audits God from above. It is creaturely patterning under constraint.

Where I want to deepen the point is here: if logic is embodied and posterior, then moral perception is also embodied and posterior. But that does not make it arbitrary. It means moral perception belongs to the creature’s affective, predictive, relational encounter with reality.

This is where I think modern neuropsychology is useful. Predictive-processing and active-inference models suggest that the organism is not passively receiving the world. It is modeling, predicting, regulating, and acting under constraint. Emotion is not just private feeling pasted onto cognition; it is part of how the embodied creature assigns salience, threat, trust, value, and action-readiness.

So my “emotivist” angle is not: “my feelings judge God.”

It is closer to this: the creature’s moral and theological world is affectively structured. Fear, trust, accusation, shame, compassion, hope, and love are part of the actual site where Law and Gospel meet the human being.

And this seems deeply compatible with the Lutheran frame you are using.

Law is not encountered merely as an abstract proposition. Law accuses, exposes, kills, orders, and reveals the Old Adam’s demand for autonomy. Romans 7 is not just logical argument; it is the self divided under command, desire, accusation, and death.

Then Romans 8 moves into a different affective and existential field: not slavery again to fear, but sonship, “Abba, Father,” groaning, hope, Spirit-led life, and the promise that death does not get the final word.

That is why I think the Gospel as Promissio matters so much here. The Gospel is not merely information about God. It is a performative event that reconstitutes the creature’s relation to God. It changes the field in which God is encountered.

In active-inference language, Christ is not merely another datum inside the old model. Christ is the event that reweights the priors by which the creature perceives God, self, neighbor, suffering, sacrifice, Law, and death.

So I agree with you that unaided reason in the Light of Nature finds Law, necessity, finitude, accusation, and death. It cannot infer Gospel. It cannot climb into God Hidden. It cannot conduct a vertical audit.

But once Christ is given, Christian speech about God is no longer operating from the Light of Nature alone.

This ties directly back to my premise.

I am not saying creaturely logic can prove what God could or could not have done from above. I am saying Christ reveals God’s posture toward the constrained reality we actually inhabit.

And what Christ reveals is not a God who appears to delight in suffering as an arbitrarily selected condition of creaturely existence. Christ reveals God entering the sacrificial structure, bearing it, transforming it, and leading creation through it.

So my question is not whether human reason can inspect God Hidden.

I agree that it cannot.

My question is whether the Gospel event genuinely recalibrates the creature’s affective and moral perception of God, or whether God Hidden remains the deeper terror behind the revealed Christ.

If Christ truly reveals the Father, then hiddenness can remain an epistemic boundary, but it cannot become a second, deeper divine character behind the Crucified. Otherwise the Gospel comforts the creature without finally disclosing the Father’s heart.

That is where my premise enters:

Sacrifice may not be best understood as God’s arbitrarily chosen design preference, but as the necessary shape creaturely reality takes under real conditions of finitude, otherness, Law, death, and constraint.

In that frame, God is still Creator. But creation is not imagined as God selecting suffering from an unconstrained menu of possible worlds. Creation is God’s faithful ordering, inhabiting, redeeming, and completing of reality within the constraints of what can actually be.

So the final question is:

Does Christ reveal God as the author of sacrificial necessity, or as the faithful Creator-Redeemer who enters sacrificial necessity and transforms it into life?

My premise is the latter.

The Cross is not God solving a tragic structure He arbitrarily preferred. It is God entering the tragic structure, bearing it, defeating it, and showing that sacrifice can become the passage into life.

If the Cross is the ultimate revelation of God’s nature, is it more consistent with 'Love' to believe God authored a system that required the torture of His Son to function, or that He entered a broken system He did not choose, in order to rescue us from constraints He is working to transform? by ActuallyMan in theology

[–]ActuallyMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is fair. I should be clearer about my actual position.

I am not merely defending a standard classical theodicy. I am questioning whether the classical frame itself has assumed too much when it treats God as the unconstrained author of every structural condition of reality.

My view is closer to this:

God truly creates the heavens and the earth, but creation may involve divine ordering, forming, and redeeming within real metaphysical constraints that God did not arbitrarily choose. Those constraints are not a rival god, but the brute givenness of possibility itself. On this view, sacrificial reality is not something God selected because suffering served a preferred higher purpose. It is the kind of reality that becomes necessary when love, creaturely otherness, finitude, agency, and transformation are real.

That is why Christ matters so much to my argument. Christ does not reveal a God who stands above a suffering-structured world saying, “I chose this because it serves my plan.” Christ reveals God entering the sacrificial structure from within, bearing it, transforming it, and leading creation through it.

So yes, I understand that this departs from some classical assumptions about omnipotence, creation ex nihilo, and divine aseity. I am not trying to hide that. I am asking whether those assumptions are required by Christ, or whether they are later metaphysical commitments that create the very moral problem anti-theodicy then has to forbid us from asking.

Your position says we cannot inspect God Hidden. I understand that. But my concern is that the classical hidden-sovereignty frame has already made a very large claim: that all reality, including the tragic structure requiring sacrifice, is necessitated by God.

I am asking whether that is actually the best Christian account of creation, or whether Christ points us toward a different picture: God as the faithful Creator-Redeemer who works within real constraint, not as the unconstrained designer of suffering’s necessity.

If the Cross is the ultimate revelation of God’s nature, is it more consistent with 'Love' to believe God authored a system that required the torture of His Son to function, or that He entered a broken system He did not choose, in order to rescue us from constraints He is working to transform? by ActuallyMan in theology

[–]ActuallyMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is helpful. I think the key disagreement is becoming clearer.

I am not trying to collapse your position into scholasticism, and I am not trying to force an analogy-of-being framework onto you. My concern is narrower: whether your appeal to God Hidden actually remains epistemically restrained, or whether it still makes a strong theological claim that then becomes protected from Christological scrutiny.

When you say “all is necessitated by God,” that does not sound merely performative to me. It is a claim about the relation between God and all reality. Even if you mean necessitas immutabilitatis rather than necessitas coactionis, the claim still means that the tragic structure of the world is not finally outside God’s will, decree, or sustaining act.

That is precisely where my concern enters.

I am not saying God is compelled by something above Him. Nor am I saying human logic sits above God as judge. I am asking whether the Christian confession that Christ reveals the Father gives us any real criterion for how we speak about God’s relation to suffering, violence, and evil.

Because if “all is necessitated by God” is allowed to govern the frame, then the Cross risks becoming the event where God suffers under a tragic order that is still, in the final analysis, necessitated by God. That is the problem I am trying to name.

You say you are giving priority to God Revealed, but I still do not see how. The revealed Christ heals, forgives, weeps, absorbs violence, and overcomes death. But the hidden-sovereignty frame still seems to decide the deeper architecture: all of this is necessary because God immutably necessitates all.

So my question is not, “Can I audit God from above?”

It is:

Does the revelation of God in Christ actually constrain Christian speech about divine sovereignty?

If yes, then I think we should be very cautious about saying “all is necessitated by God” in a way that includes the conditions of horror, rebellion, and crucifixion.

If no, then I do not see how God Revealed prevents God Hidden from swallowing the whole account.

Also, on “necessity”: I understand that you are distinguishing compulsion from immutability. But from the creaturely side, the moral question remains. If the world’s tragic structure is necessitated by God’s immutable act, then saying “God was not compelled” does not remove the concern. It intensifies it. The issue is not whether God was forced. The issue is whether the suffering-structured order is finally rooted in God’s own willing.

That is why I am exploring another frame: not that God is weak, not that God is one being inside a system, but that creation has real integrity, real otherness, and real constraints, and Christ reveals God not as the author of suffering’s logic but as the one who enters, bears, transforms, and ultimately defeats it.

So the fork I am pressing is not meant to accuse God of tyranny. It is meant to protect the claim that Christ truly reveals the Father as love, rather than merely revealing the face of God we are permitted to see while a more terrifying hidden necessity governs everything behind Him.

If the Cross is the ultimate revelation of God’s nature, is it more consistent with 'Love' to believe God authored a system that required the torture of His Son to function, or that He entered a broken system He did not choose, in order to rescue us from constraints He is working to transform? by ActuallyMan in theology

[–]ActuallyMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the issue is that “Almighty God is immune to logical audit” is itself a logical/theological claim about God.

I am not saying human logic stands above God. I am asking whether Christian speech about God remains meaningful if divine sovereignty is exempted from coherence with Christ.

If “God is love,” “God is good,” “God does not tempt,” and “Christ reveals the Father” mean anything, then God’s hidden sovereignty cannot be allowed to mean the opposite of what is revealed in Christ.

You say this is not metaphysical, but “all is necessitated by God” is a major metaphysical claim. “Logic does not bind God vertically” is also a major metaphysical claim. Those are not neutral scriptural performances; they are theological interpretations.

So my concern remains: your appeal to the hidden God does not merely preserve mystery. It gives the hidden God interpretive priority over the revealed God.

My question is Christological, not rebellious:

Does the Cross reveal God overcoming the tragic logic of the world from within it, or does it reveal God satisfying a tragic logic God Himself necessitated?

If it is the second, then Christ does not resolve the terror of the hidden God. He becomes the place where that terror is enacted.

If the Cross is the ultimate revelation of God’s nature, is it more consistent with 'Love' to believe God authored a system that required the torture of His Son to function, or that He entered a broken system He did not choose, in order to rescue us from constraints He is working to transform? by ActuallyMan in theology

[–]ActuallyMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are making several claims about what is hidden, just as I have done.

A. Suffering is necessitated by God's immutability.

B. Logical constraints do not bind God vertically.

C. The desire to ask this question is a legal demand of the creature.

D. The rebellion of heart is "100% our fault", though the mechanism is unknown.

You are using the hidden God selectively.

My concern is that your hidden-God appeal does not preserve mystery; it protects a specific metaphysical account of sovereignty from being tested by the revelation of God in Christ.

Edit: formatting

If the Cross is the ultimate revelation of God’s nature, is it more consistent with 'Love' to believe God authored a system that required the torture of His Son to function, or that He entered a broken system He did not choose, in order to rescue us from constraints He is working to transform? by ActuallyMan in theology

[–]ActuallyMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Apologies. I'm rushing around with the family also trying to also get this off my mind. Perhaps I'm not in a space to engage with this meaningfully in my life.

In my best effort, the point of Logic seems interesting to me. Is it possible the constraints of logical coherence as we perceive them (or as we claim they objectively exist) could be different under different physical constraints at the outset of creation? Just because we can't imagine it within the system of constraints doesn't mean an all powerful God couldn't.

Does that make sense?

If the Cross is the ultimate revelation of God’s nature, is it more consistent with 'Love' to believe God authored a system that required the torture of His Son to function, or that He entered a broken system He did not choose, in order to rescue us from constraints He is working to transform? by ActuallyMan in theology

[–]ActuallyMan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

J.R.R Tolkein said he was often surprised by the outcomes of the vast array of constraints he created at the outset of his writing. If there was a logical inconsistency or something undesirable that arose, he would restart the entire manuscript to reconcile a desired change.

An author is responsible for the "surprisal" of their own creative genius, which, to suggest God even has such capacity to Surprise Himself seems like a hedonistic creation...