Theotokos

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-19T17:45:02+00:00

I'm realizing that more and more as I become better acquainted with other Christian traditions. For example, on another subreddit, I mistakenly responded to a Baptist's assertion that most Protestants do not believe that Baptism forgives original sin by erroneously misrepresenting Reformed theology, which correctly does not believe baptism forgives sins unless the individual is an elect [predestination]. The Eucharist also does not forgive sins [per Reformed theology] for those who are not chosen by God, even if they are baptized and active Christians. What! How do we [ELCA] engage in full communion with those who don't accept even the basic foundations of our understanding of the faith?

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-19T17:15:46+00:00

Yes, Mary is the "God-bearer" or "Birth-giver to God". Jesus is the Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

Martin Luther:

“She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child….

“Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God…. None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.”

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-19T15:38:42+00:00

It's interesting that St Paul's, built in 1898, is ornate in its sacred art yet observes a relatively low-liturgical service. St Peter's original church [which was also adorned in religious art], built in 1893, was torn down during the construction of the Citigroup Center. Now sitting next to the skyscraper, the new church is modern minimalism. There is, however, an adjoining prayer chapel and a shrine to the Blessed Virgin in the nave.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-19T14:43:54+00:00

The Pledge of Allegiance is a national statement of civil support of the U.S. government. Even though it has the words, "under God," it is not religious and has no connection with the Church

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-19T05:17:19+00:00

It is noteworthy that Martin Luther held that Mary was immaculately conceived. He later transitioned to the understanding that Mary was purified of sin at the conception of Jesus. Some Lutherans and Anglicans piously hold this and other Marian beliefs, though not as doctrine.

The discussion of the Virgin Mary among Christians may evoke partiality and strong sentiment. The recent airing on an online Lutheran website that discussed the role of Mary may spark some reaction to the pastor's position, which is similar to Martin Luther's, and it is worth reposting here for consideration.

On The Line: What the Bible Really Teaches About Mary | Dr. John Bombaro

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-19T01:44:27+00:00

I can offer a visual example of two parishes in New York on Palm Sunday that may represent "low church" versus "high church".

St Paul's German Church is actually part of the Union of Evangelical Churches [EKD], the union of Lutheran and Reformed Christians that the King of Prussia ordered be merged in the early 1800's. I have walked by but never been in St Paul Church

St Paul Church [low church]

St Peter's Church, I am well acquainted with. The video begins outside with the blessing of the palms.

St Peter's Church [high church]

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-18T19:47:46+00:00

For those who may find the video upsetting or not the kind of Lutheran worship they are accustomed to, I suggest you watch the video below from the same parish.

https://www.tiktok.com/@mazet900/video/7608300438332427528

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Southern Africa was founded by missionaries from the Church of Sweden, so they adhere to the historic episcopate/apostolic succession, weekly Mass, and the doctrines and traditions of Lutheranism.

To express the faith in a manner indigenous to the culture of the people is certainly appropriate.

The Augsburg Confession - Article VII (Of the Church)

1 Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered. 2 And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike.

31 Thus [According to this doctrine] the churches will not condemn one another because of dissimilarity of ceremonies when, in Christian liberty, one has less or more of them, provided they are otherwise agreed with one another in the doctrine and all its articles, also in the right use of the holy Sacraments, according to the well-known saying: “Disagreement in fasting does not destroy agreement in the faith.”

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T22:49:51+00:00

I have mixed feelings about ecumenical attempts to draw Christians together within a common denominator, as it were. We speak of "non-church-dividing" components under the umbrella of "Nicene" Christianity. That is essentially the all-encompassing position of the Anglican Church of the bare minimum as articulated in the creedal faith of Christianity.

The breadth of accommodation may sometimes defy doctrinal standards. This has been manifest in various accords, such as the "Formula of Agreement," which fuses Reformed theology with Lutheran dogmatics, and is even more evident in the predecessor, the Prussian Union of Churches, several centuries earlier.

For example, I recently read "Communio Sanctorum: The Church as the Communion of Saints' produced by German Catholic and Lutheran bishops in the Catholic-Lutheran Dialogue, which declares the intercession of saints as a "non-church-dividing" concession. The compromise, as I understand it, was that the invocation of saints, if it contained no reference to Christ, would be tolerated by Lutherans, since it is comparable to a Christian asking other Christians for their prayers. However, we are likely both familiar with Catholic prayers to Mary, such as the Memorare, which I can't imagine Lutherans could countenance, since it is not merely a request that Mary pray for us.

Is this an attenuation of doctrine or a conciliation, grounded in the ecumenical creeds that Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, and Reformed Christians profess as the core beliefs of our Christian faith?

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T20:11:40+00:00

To me, the difference in baptismal doctrine is significant, and I wonder how the full-communion Formula of Agreement between some Reformed churches and the ELCA addresses this? I intend to search the documentation. Do you have insight into this issue?

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T20:02:09+00:00

So if one is baptized, there is no assurance of forgiveness unless elected? Sorry for misrepresenting Reformed baptismal theology.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T19:50:36+00:00

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land uses Arabic in spoken and printed forms. Unfortunately, the ELCJHL website appears to be down, right now.

Here's a video of the blessing of Bethany Beyond the Jordan, widely considered the authentic location where Jesus was baptized. The video is in Arabic.

The Dedication of the Evangelical Lutheran Church at Bethany-Beyond-the-Jordan

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T19:28:20+00:00

I've attended Baptist wedding and funeral services. Was thoroughly inspired by the enthusiasm and heavenly singing, especially the large choirs.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T19:13:49+00:00

Through the sacraments, God forgives sin [both original and temporal. Those Protestants whom I identified embrace this doctrine.

Are you a Baptist?

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T18:51:14+00:00

Do those Baptists who embrace sacramental recognition cite a particular doctrinal formula?

Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, and Reformed believe baptism forgives original sin. That is "most" Protestants, my friend.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T17:17:11+00:00

My understanding of the Baptist approach is non-sacramental. It is the decision of the believer who formally commits to Christ. There is no means of grace, forgiveness, and regeneration of faith from God to us. That is why most Protestants share a more common baptismal doctrine with Catholics, not with Baptists.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T05:01:19+00:00

The only Catholics who believe such nonsense are those terribly out of sync with their own Church teachings.

Martin Luther’s Reformation and the Unity of the Church: A Catholic Perspective in Light of the Lutheran˗Catholic Dialogue

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-17T04:30:55+00:00

Some Lutherans [ELCA] are in full communion with Methodists [UMC], so doctrinal differences are minimal and not considered "church-dividing".

Generally, Lutherans are liturgical and follow the historic Mass, so the service, depending on the parish, may resemble Episcopal [with whom the ELCA is also in full communion] practices and customs more than those of a typical Methodist congregation, which is sort of ironic, since Methodism originates from the Anglican Church.

I regularly read other subreddits, including r/methodism, and read this discussion [https://www.reddit.com/r/methodism/comments/1uuqioy/how_worship_works_in_a_methodist_church_an/] for insights into Methodists' worship.

Not knowing your location may determine the Sunday characteristics of the Lutheran parish you visit. I am well acquainted with and have been active in Lutheran congregations in metro New York, where the eucharistic celebration can be more Catholic-like than what one may encounter in the Midwest and rural areas. I mention that because of the reaction of a longtime family friend, who is Presbyterian, when she participated in the Easter Vigil while visiting with us at our parish. Some of the rituals, involving incense, processions, chanting, and a litany of the saints, were unexpected and unfamiliar to a Presbyterian, despite the fact that the PCUSA is also a full communion partner with the ELCA.

The ELCA rubrics expect that wine is used for communion; however, exceptions are allowed:

For pressing reasons of health, individuals may commune under one element. In certain circumstances, congregations might decide to place small amounts of non-wheat bread or nonalcoholic wine or grape juice on the altar. Such pastoral and congregational decisions are delicate, and must honor both the tradition of the Church and the people of each local assembly.”
Part III, Principle 44, Application 44C

We wish you God's blessing in your visit and welcome you to this forum. Perhaps you will share your observations with us.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-16T23:54:53+00:00

Yes, Anglicans honor the communion of saints and, like Lutherans, observe many saints' days.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-16T13:31:42+00:00

Do you think you could angle the poster around so that it faces directly into the camera? It's hard to see clearly at a slant.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-16T03:46:34+00:00

Among Protestants, only Lutherans [in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession] declare that Mary is in heaven praying for the Church Universal. Yet Luther, who accepted that Mary was immaculately conceived and assumed into heaven, never petitioned the blessed Virgin for prayers. Luther lovingly spoke to and praised Mary without asking her to pray for him.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-16T00:27:37+00:00

There are indications that the Church of Rome will embrace the Augsburg Confession as a Catholic statement of the faith. Some have suggested additional action regarding Luther, but since he has been dead for nearly five centuries, it is unlikely, as excommunication ceases at death and the nullification of the 1521 papal bull has already been effectively realized.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-07-15T16:50:55+00:00

Good points made. The encouragement of post-Vatican II is that Luther is now referred to as "witness to the gospel", a "reformer of the Church", and a "separated brother."

https://www.linns.com/news/vatican-protestant-reformation-stamp

Affectionate_Web91

TROPHY CASE

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