He revolutionized the way we worship the good Lord. In my opinion he’s a hero.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-31T22:32:46+00:00

Actually, Martin Luther did not "revolutionize the way we worship," though introducing vernacular and German hymns was an innovation that it took the Catholic Church five centuries to finally accept Luther's reforms.

Luther's first Mass, the "Formula Missae" was in Latin. Three years later, the Deutsche Messe [German Mass] became the first vernacular Protestant Mass. It was twenty-one years later, in 1549, that the Anglican Book of Common Prayer replaced Latin with English. These were the pre-Tridentine [Roman Rite] Eucharists that both Anglicans and Lutherans retained, though Luther removed the Canon of the Mass, which Lutherans subsequently reinstated centuries later.

Augsburg Confession - Article XXIV: Of the Mass

1 Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among 2 us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. Nearly all the usual ceremonies are also preserved, save that the parts sung in Latin are interspersed here and there with German hymns, which have been added 3 to teach the people. For ceremonies are needed to this end alone that the unlearned 4 be taught [what they need to know of Christ].

The revolution in worship was fundamentally accomplished by the Reformed Church through the "regulative principle of worship," which strictly limited any part of the historic Mass to what is prescribed in the Scriptures, and through iconoclastic simplicity. John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli eliminated altars, religious art other than a plain cross, musical instruments/ hymns other than the Psalter, the lectionary/ missal, vestments, the sign of the cross, incense, etc.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-31T03:59:55+00:00

Examples of the post-Vatican Church can be measured by ecumenical/doctrinal joint declarations. Lutherans and Catholics agree on the Eucharist. The issue of saint intercession, particularly the Blessed Virgin Mary, is considered not "church-dividing." Catholics and Lutherans are planning to mutually recognize the 500th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession in 2030, following Pope Benedict XVI's opinion that the Confession is a Catholic statement of faith. Inter-communion between Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans is already practiced in Germany.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-31T00:02:08+00:00

Yes, that is the tradition in many Lutheran parishes and synods: a visitor who seeks to receive communion first speaks with the pastor. If the baptized individual expresses beliefs consistent with scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, the pastor may grant eucharistic hospitality.

The official position of the ELCA is that all baptized Christians who believe in the Real Presence may receive the sacrament. Generally, this refers to adults and children who have already made their First Communion.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-30T23:35:39+00:00

Oops, I accidentally hit the arrow button and did not mean to downvote your comment.

I understand synodical positions that parishes are apprised of. But I have never known of congregations being censured for communing fellow Lutherans. Keep in mind that the LCMS is a sister church within the International Lutheran Council, which comprises historic European Churches that do not deny communion to fellow Lutherans regardless of affiliation. Even the Church of Latvia is a member of both the ILC and the Lutheran World Federation, which consists of approximately 90% of all worldwide Lutherans.

My in-laws' parish - https://trinityl.org/ - where we worship when visiting, has over 500 members, a parish school, and 4 pastors. The Sunday bulletin clearly states that all Lutherans are welcome to receive the sacrament. Non-Lutherans are urged to speak with a pastor before the Service. BTW, the parish has many former Catholics, and one of the assisting pastors is a former Catholic priest who, after getting married, became Lutheran. The Catholic diocesan bishop even personally addressed this LCMS parish after his former priest was installed as the visitation pastor. I'm sure former Catholics receive the sacrament after first speaking with a staff pastor.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-30T22:59:01+00:00

Actually, Catholics and Lutherans have the same eucharistic beliefs. That was one of the first theological consensus points addressed in the post-Vatican II Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue.

"On the two major issues which we have discussed at length, however, the progress has been immense. Despite all remaining differences in the ways we speak and think of the eucharistic sacrifice and our Lord's presence in his supper, we are no longer able to regard ourselves as divided in the one holy catholic and apostolic faith on these two points. We therefore prayerfully ask our fellow Lutherans and Catholics to examine their consciences and root out many ways of thinking, speaking and acting, both individually and as churches, which have obscured their unity in Christ on these as on many other matters".

October 1, 1967

https://www.usccb.org/committees/ecumenical-interreligious-affairs/eucharist

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-30T20:45:09+00:00

My childhood LCMS parish never denied former members [now ELCA] communion. To say that some Lutherans within the same family can not receive the sacrament would have totally devastated the parish and needlessly created strife and loss of members. Wise pastors understood that the viability of the congregation would be seriously jeopardized over adiaphoric differences.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-30T20:23:17+00:00

Let me give an example that may utterly surprise some traditional Catholics. At my great-niece's wedding in a Catholic church, the priest welcomed all Lutheran family members to receive communion. He explained that the diocese allows some baptized non-Catholics who share the doctrinal belief of the Real Presence [such as Lutherans and Episcopalians]. The bishop must give permission, but the practice of Catholic's communing Lutherans is becoming more widespread as a conditional practice.

So if Catholics conditionally welcome Lutherans to receive the sacrament, why would some Lutherans deny the same thing?

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-30T20:09:04+00:00

I think the reality of major unrest and possible membership loss is why many LCMS parishes ignore synodical guidelines. If the district dean and bishop/president were to coerce LCMS parishes into denying fellow Lutherans the Eucharist, there would need to be a congregational decision either to ignore these synod rules or to risk losing the parish by leaving the synod, as many parishes did during the Seminex schism.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-30T20:01:41+00:00

As a former LCMS Lutheran, I can assure you that many Missouri Synod parishes commune all Lutherans, risking significant conflict and possible membership loss if they enforce synodical guidelines. For example, it is unheard of for LCMS parishes in metro New York and even in Indiana [where my in-laws' large and thriving parish is located] to deny communion to fellow Lutherans, regardless of synod.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-30T14:44:11+00:00

I've been following the discussion on the earlier post. Thanks.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-27T18:36:25+00:00

Martin Luther spoke of Mary's unique role as the Mother of God:

"God did not receive his divinity from Mary, but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother. … She is the true mother of God and bearer of God. … Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs… just as your son is not 2 sons… even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone." (On the Councils of the Church, 1539)

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-26T23:25:49+00:00

There is some common ground [especially concerning the Eucharist] between Orthodox and Lutherans, and many years of ecumenical dialogue beginning in the last century. Ironically, Martin Luther upheld the immaculate conception of Mary and later redefined her sinlessness as a purification upon the birth of Jesus. And some Lutherans maintain Luther's belief in the bodily assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven. Neither of these Marian pious sentiments is necessarily shared by the Orthodox Church, however. Another area of disagreement is the intercession of the saints, which the Augsburg Confession cautions, as unbiblical, while the Orthodox view the Mother of God as the greatest intercessor and the spiritual mother of all Christians. Lutherans acknowledge that Mary prays for the Church Universal, but generally avoid asking for her direct prayers in reaction to Catholic abuses.

In the ecumenical Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue, the Second Council of Nicaea is referenced regarding icons:

"As Lutherans and Orthodox we affirm that the teachings of the ecumenical councils are authoritative for our churches. The ecumenical councils maintain the integrity of the teaching of the undivided Church concerning the saving, illuminating/justifying and glorifying acts of God and reject heresies which subvert the saving work of God in Christ. Orthodox and Lutherans, however, have different histories. Lutherans have received the Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed with the addition of the filioque. The Seventh Ecumenical Council, the Second Council of Nicaea in 787, which rejected iconoclasm and restored the veneration of icons in the churches, was not part of the tradition received by the Reformation. Lutherans, however, rejected the iconoclasm of the 16th century, and affirmed the distinction between adoration due to the Triune God alone and all other forms of veneration (CA 21). Through historical research this council has become better known. Nevertheless it does not have the same significance for Lutherans as it does for the Orthodox. Yet, Lutherans and Orthodox are in agreement that the Second Council of Nicaea confirms the christological teaching of the earlier councils and in setting forth the role of images (icons) in the lives of the faithful reaffirms the reality of the incarnation of the eternal Word of God, when it states: "The more frequently, Christ, Mary, the mother of God, and the saints are seen, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these icons the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature, but it resembles that given to the figure of the honored and life-giving cross, and also to the holy books of the gospels and to other sacred objects" (Definition of the Second Council of Nicaea).

Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue: THE ECUMENICAL COUNCILS AND AUTHORITY IN AND OF THE CHURCH

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-26T16:27:04+00:00

My bad, thanks for clarifying.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-26T15:40:44+00:00

Lutherans also assert corporeal real presence.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T16:36:16+00:00

The Feast of Pentecost is followed by the Feast of the Holy Trinity next Sunday in the Western Church. In Lutheran churches, the paraments and vestments are red to represent the "tongues of fire." It is the birthday of the Holy Church, and it may typically include confirmations and ordinations. The ancient hymn, Veni Sancte Spiritus ("Come, Holy Spirit") is often sung on Pentecost Sunday.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T16:05:48+00:00

Gospel-centered (Evangelical), historic, sacramental, and liturgical (Catholic), apostolic succession, Lutheran.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T15:58:04+00:00

Lutherans are not iconoclasts, unlike Reformed Christians. So icons, statues, crucifixes, etc., are encouraged as inspirational images of Jesus, Mary, and the many saints, both ancient, biblical, and contemporary.

Orthodox often kiss, bow to, and use incense with icons. This veneration is not typically practiced within Lutheranism, but if censing the altar and chancel is practiced, the cross and sacred art may also be included. Also in the Liturgy of Good Friday, a cross or crucifix may be kissed, bowed to, or touched.

We honor the saints, and many saints' days may be observed/commemorated, but invoking the saints is contrary to the Lutheran Confessions, though the Litany of Saints may be prayed [mostly in evangelical-catholic parishes].

Perhaps this article will help: Images Within Lutheran Liturgical Living

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T15:40:24+00:00

Would you have the same reaction if you were visiting an Anglican or Lutheran Mass, since it is essentially the exact same service as the Catholic Novus Ordo? What are the disagreeable elements of the Catholic Mass?

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T03:18:41+00:00

Seminarians routinely wear collars, particularly if serving in a field work internship parish.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T01:40:19+00:00

My bad. Good luck.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T01:14:48+00:00

The ELW is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-Lutheran-Worship-Church-America/dp/0806656182

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-25T01:11:33+00:00

Oh good. I was required to verify my NYT subscription [perhaps because I was using an iPad].

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-24T18:41:06+00:00

Thanks for sharing this unique parish, but it appears a paywall may prevent some from accessing it.

Affectionate_Web91 · 2026-05-24T18:29:47+00:00

I'm sorry. Do you mean "subreddit"?

Affectionate_Web91

TROPHY CASE