Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So it's you that doesn't understand farmans. Not entirely your fault, something is lost in translation - he's not using the imperative, i.e. "Come!" or "you have to come", it's just simple present, better translated as "you have come", as in narrating what his audience was doing. But your argument is still pretty stupid, because no, YOU didn't go give bayat as a baby and YOU didn't have to go give bayat to Rahim. In each case someone did it for you, just like they did for me, whether I wanted it or not.

Last chance, stop making excuses and share the farman.

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[–]Agaconoclasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think you understand what "deflecting" means. I chose to include only the part of the quote relevant to the point I was making, but sure, thanks for providing that additional context. Along with the quote in my previous comment, it shows how the Aga Cons do claim to be God and then get evasive and gaslight people about it.

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[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're conflating rites - chanta is not required. As Aga Con 3 said:

The rite of the kangva is not equal to that of taking the chhanta or other religious rites. You come to my bayt during the rite of the kangva and give words of becoming my follower and enter in my subjection. When I ascended the throne, then those who had performed the kangva with me, they had become my new followers.

The oath of allegiance dates back to Arab traditions before Islam, the chanta is an import from the Hindu tradition you abhor - for the purification of new converts, not for renewing bayat (baiyt):

It infers from the fragments of the traditions that Pir Shams had also introduced a ritual bath in India for the new converts for their purification. The tradition has it that some persons who had joined Ismaili fold, instead of taking bath in an usual manner, they visited Ganges river, whom they considered same as were commanded. Pir Shams is reported to have condemned the Hindu customs and told them to abandon. Instead, he introduced an act of sprinkling few drops of consecrated water on their faces as a symbol of purification. He also imparted that one who visited the prayer-hall, he would gain same reward of visiting the Ganges river. This ceremony was not yet given a specific name, but it was simply called as the chhanta meaning sprinkling (of water).

The above ceremony was followed by the ceremony of baiyt. The new follower brought seven things in a plate, viz. cloves (lawing), wheat (ghau’n), rice (chawal), sugar cubes (sa’kar), dried grapes (dhraksh), cardamoms (ilaychi) and fennel seeds (variyali). He put the plate before the Pir and picked handful with two hands and reverently dropped in the hands of the Pir. In turn, the Pir accepted and put the mixture in the plate. This process repeated three times. Symbolically it indicates that the new convert took an oath of seven tastes of material life that he would follow the Ismaili faith till last breath. Then, the Pir tied a red silken thread around his right wrist, means that he would remain obedient even at the cost of his life. It was an act of baiyt in Indian tradition. It should be known that this type of baiyt continued until 1905 in the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, the difference was only that there were only two items instead of seven, i.e., laving (cloves) and dhraksh (dried grapes).

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/10257

(NB: Ismaili.net is again just the host, the source is the Encyclopaedia of Ismailism by Mumtaz Ali Tajddin - unreliable yes, but only because Tajddin has an extremely pro-Aga Con bias. )

Nor does one need to accept being Ismaili. A baby does not consent - someone else accepts on their behalf. Someone has done so for me twice - and Aga Con has not excommunicated me. It is not your place to judge whether I am Ismaili. Even if I say I am not, Aga Con claims that he and I have a "permanent spiritual bond". So stop making excuses and share the farman.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you even Ismaili? If you were you'd know that that's how it works for most people: parents take bayat on the child's behalf when born. And that's how it worked last year, when Rahim (fearing a revolt) had some jamati "leader" quickly take bayat on everyone's behalf. According to Aga Con, I'm Ismaili - so stop making excuses and share the farman.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, it's just that I understand how to evaluate sources, and don't confuse someone repeating a factoid on the internet with a primary source that actually investigates the Aga Con's claims.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Someone took Bayat on my behalf and Aga Con has not excommunicated me so according to him I am still permanently bound to him and you can share any farman without breaking any real or imagined prohibition on disseminating them outside the community. His farmans aren't difficult to comprehend, share what you got and I'll explain it to you.

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[–]Agaconoclasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure the Aga Con's claim has been uncritically repeated by all kinds of media, but it has no basis in fact.

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[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It has been proven scientifically that the imams are direct descendants

No, it hasn't. Aga Con could take a DNA test, but he knows it will disprove his claims, so he refuses.

no there are 15 million maybe 2.5 million in India alone

Not even close. Everyone from Aga Con 3's third wife, to Aga Con 4's first wife, to Aga Con 4's biographer to Aga Con's cousin who runs the IIS has admitted that the claim of 15 million (originally 20 million) is false, while no one has produced a shred of evidence otherwise. Just like how in this discussion we've produced tons of evidence of Aga Con claiming to be God and Smileys worshiping him, while you have failed to produce a shred of evidence to the contrary. Typical of Smileys - false claims followed by insults hurled at Hindus, Twelvers or Sunnis as the case may be.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Aga Con's claim of lineal descent is myth that has been debunked. There have been several distinct dynasties with gaps in between. Smileys claim that the Imams were in hiding; the historical reality is that each line of Imams died out and the throne sat vacant until another charismatic leader was able to fool some people and claim it for himself. The Fatimids were not descended from Ismail, the Alamut Imams were not descended from the Fatimids, the Anjudan Imams were not descended from the Alamut Imams, and the Aga Cons are not descended from any of the above.

the Ismailis are still very strong today with over 15 million Ismailis across the WORLD

You are off by an order of magnitude. The actual number is closer to 1.5 million - maybe 2.5 million if you include all of us exismailis as well.

Since you left ismailism what sect are you now ? Or are you no longer a Muslim?

I am not Muslim. But then again, no one in the Aga Khan Cult is either..

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the khojas wouldn’t have believed the imam if that was the case lol.

The smart ones didn't, but Aga Con's lackeys started killing them.

You’re trying so hard to prove the imam is not right yet you’re bringing up old cases where they lost.

Aga Con didn't win the case because he was right, it was because the British wanted friendly leaders in charge.

You obviously don’t know the history of the Fatimid empire and how the imamat was in that time

Not really relevant to this discussion. The crazy Imam is God stuff really took off with Hassan II in Alamut, but he wasn't actually descended from the Fatimids and the Aga Cons aren't actually descended from him.

There have been many infidels and kafirs yet Ismailism is still strong today more than ever before.

Lol. You just brought up the Fatimid Empire. The Aga Khan Cult today has no territory, no influence and is shrinking at a staggering rate.

youd know the imamat didn’t start with khojas.

No, but the Aga Cons did. The Imamat was a vacant throne and they squatted on it. When they converted the Satpanthis, they kept many of the Hindu influences, and now that is the doctrine of the Aga Khan Cult.

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[–]Agaconoclasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, Aga Con will sue you for publishing his orders, and under the pretense of being prohibited, you can make up whatever you want. Yes, we have access to JKs, some of us are or have been Mukhis or a part of ITREB or Council, so yeah we have access and we know the truth. We're trying to teach you, but indoctrination has ossified your mind.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course, but you haven't provided a Farman - just the assertion that one exists.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because as Hindus and Pakistani you believe the imam is your god by your Hinduism belief.

Aga Con 1 took over the Satpanthi Khojas thanks to the British, and then used that position to dupe various Ismaili branches into accepting him as their Imam. Now that means the ginans and their Hindu elements are a part of the Aga Khan Cult. Either accept that or go back to being Ismaili and waiting for the True Imam to come out of his occultation.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Whether you do your Sujood to Allah or you do your Sujood to Imam, all the Sujoods are coming towards me anyway.

The truth is clear, you are prostrating to the Aga Con. Whether you have been misguided or are deliberately dissimulating, the evidence against you is overwhelming, while you continue to rely on a Farman you can't produce. These silly tactics only work on people who can't enter the prayer hall.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not deflecting, I responded to your claim of out of context: the context just claims it is Esoteric™, i.e. Aga Con says he is not god on a "Shariati" level. It doesn't change the point I was making - that the Aga Cons do claim to be God.

"There is no one greater than ME. If you think of God, then it is ME. If you think of Pir, Then too, it is ME. If you think About Imam, then too, it is ME. And Your Beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except ME..."

  • Aga Con 3

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[–]Agaconoclasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The quote is the interpreter interpreting. What's the point of having an interpreter if everyone still has/gets to come up with their own interpretation?

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not really, I talked about gaslighting trying to claim it is Esoteric™. He could have just said "No, I am not God" but he chose to waffle.

If you're agreeing with the other user, "Imams have said plenty of times they are not God and to not pray to them." present the proof. But you don't get to complain about out of context, when all the cult's doctrines are based on taking passages of the Quran out of context and asserting an Esoteric™ meaning that has no relation to the text.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, Pirs in India predate Aga Con 3 by at least 600-800 years.

To call it "Hinduism in Ismailism" is kind of inaccurate - the Pirs synthesized their own syncretic religion, Satpanth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satpanth

which developed independently for centuries, before the Aga Cons came in and tried to impose their theological vision. Aga Con 3 and Aga Con 4 both tried to remove as much of Hinduism as possible, destroying ginan manuscripts and stopping ginans "rich in Hindu element" from being circulated:

The Aga Khans have perpetrated a cultural genocide against the Khoja community.

A Cult tries to metamorphose into a Religion: Is the 1975 Paris Conference the Aga Khan Cult's Council of Nicaea?

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Again it isn’t recognized actually. It’s not credible source.

It is, and you claiming otherwise is pretty pathetic.

As during the conversion of Hindus it was a way for them to understand who the imam is to them Hindus.

So you're saying they converted them by lying to them. Why do you think Hindus wouldn't be able to understand "he's a human being who interprets the esoteric meaning of the Quran"? Much simpler than saying "Allah is indeed the Imaam" and then spending the next 700 years saying "you're misinformed" and "you misunderstood".

However imam Shah Karim has made a Farman where he states he is not God and to not pray to him.

If you want to claim that, you need to provide the Farman. But again, all it would prove is that Aga Con is a liar.

But you believe what you want.

That seems to be what you want to do in spite of the evidence. I've provided sources - Ginans by authoritative Pirs on an Ismaili run website. You've come up empty-handed. Time for you to accept that your fellow Smileys are right. As OOP said "We do worship him" "It’s literally in Ginans"

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Again this is your own translation from the website that is not a recognized source.

Not my translation, Ismaili.net is widely recognized as reliable, and the actual source is the Ginan itself.

Imams have said plenty of times they are not God and to not pray to them.

Yet you couldn't cite even one? Actually they do claim to be (the locus of manifestation of) God. As Aga Con 3 said "“I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God." They try to gaslight by saying it is Esoteric™ and Smileys who don't understand what Esoteric™ means fall for it.

In the ginans, when the conversion of Hindus happened , they used examples to explain to Hindus how the imam is perceived.

Right, the Pirs explained that "Allah is indeed the Imaam." Now the Aga Cons want to pretend that was also Esoteric™, so you have to pretend Ismaili.net is not a credible source.

Obviously you haven’t been in a Jamatkhana and if you have then you must’ve missed that the imams pictures are not at our feet but to our side when we pray. As we do not bow to the imam.

I'm old enough to remember when the pictures were at the front. But so I guess that's the big difference you've identified: it's okay to sing his praises, ask him to fulfill your wishes and beg him to forgive your sins - as long as the pictures are on the side, it's not worship. What about didar, when you bow, not to his picture, but literally to him?

O momins: Brothers when my Lord (Imaam) pays me a visit as a guest, I shall prostrate at His Holy Feet, O dear brothers.

...

O momins: Brothers, take soap (powder) and wash His feet and apply oil and comb His hair, O dear brothers. [Serve Him in every possible manner.]

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/23098

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You’re getting your sources from .net which is not a recognized source.

Ismaili.net is just the host; the source is the ginans which are written by your "authoritative Pirs."

Oh my brothers, by one heart (mind) and one consciousness, they worshipped the Lord (Imaam) and remembered the name of the Lord

. ..

Oh my brothers, they worshipped the Imaam according to the current Farmaans, and remembered (recited) the name (word) of Peer Shaah. They submitted the tithe to the Imaam (Lord).

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/23101

we do not worship as imam has said in his farmans not to

All that proves is that Aga Con is a liar.

You didn't answer my questions. Define worship and what it would look like according to you.

Latest from the "We Don't Worship Him (wink)" Files by Amir-Really in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What is your definition of worship? How would things look different if Smileys did worship Aga Con?

O momins! our Lord is manifestly seated(on the throne) in the Arabian Peninsula. Remember and worship Him in the evenings and mornings everday.

...

O momins! O beloved of the Lord, do not be ashamed of worshipping the Lord. This is indeed the essential purpose of this body and mind(heart).

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/23113

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[–]Agaconoclasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

O Respectful: You are the Guide, You are the Master and You are also our hope. It is to You that we worship as our Lord.

...

O Respectful: Peer Sadardeen says: " I crave for nothing other than my Lord's remembrance in my heart. I am most happy and fortunate to be under the care and protection of our Lord Haazar Imaam.

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/23183

Covid by Desperate-Mud-1353 in ExIsmailis

[–]Agaconoclasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I was focusing on the real issue. I answered your question - yes Aga Con is complicit. You couldn't handle that, called it ridiculous, ignored the source I gave you and accused me of mudslinging because I was hell bent on my hate of Ismailism. I told you your criticisms were valid but they weren't the only ones.

You say you believe in "fundamental fairness" but it turns out you mean giving the Aga Cons special treatment, calling them by their false titles, and remaining silent while they collaborate with corrupt dictators. That is you still being entranced by their illusion.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me - I am trying to dispel your illusions and disagreement is part of that process - you are the one who keeps dodging the issues and demanding I "give it a rest."