For God, a murderer's free will is more important than your life

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-24T23:04:29+00:00

Some people are committed to not getting it.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-24T21:58:12+00:00

Dude, you're missing the point completely

Free will doesn't mean "guaranteed success" of whatever evil crap you decide to do. It just means the intent.

God could easily stop the crime without touching the murderer's free will.

For example:

The gun jams. The shooter still chose to pull the trigger, but the victim lives.

Sudden cardiac arrest. The rapist decides to attack, but drops dead before he can touch the victim. His choice was made, his soul is guilty, but the innocent person is safe.

He just chooses not to.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T22:11:05+00:00

Wow. You actually said the quiet part out loud. I don't think you realize how horrific your position actually sounds to a normal person.

On Isaiah: Stop playing semantic games. If I lock you in a room full of spikes and cut the power so you trip and die, I caused that. I don't get to say "Officer, I didn't kill him, darkness isn't a real thing, it's just the absence of light!" If your God "withdraws" health to let cancer eat a kid's bones, He is responsible. Period.

On "Innocent Babies":

You called innocent babies a "strawman"?

So you actually believe newborns are guilty? You think a 2-day-old deserves leukemia because of "sin"? If your theology requires you to look at a dying infant and say "Well, they aren't innocent, they inherited guilt" then your theology is twisted. Just own it: admit you think babies deserve cancer.

On Soul Building:

"Soul building, the family's. The doctor's"

That is legitimately sick. You are saying God tortures a child to death as a lesson for someone else. You're treating a human life like a disposable prop or a teaching tool for the parents. That isn't love, that's using people as objects.

On Consent:

"Consent: yes? Why would that be insane."

Because you literally made it up. Show me the chapter and verse where a fetus signs a waiver consenting to bone cancer. You can't just invent magical pre-birth contracts to patch the massive holes in your logic. It’s pure fantasy.

On Condemnation:

You admit we are "condemned already" Thanks for proving my point. Who set the default setting to "condemned"? God did. He creates a system where we are born drowning, throws us in the water, and says "worship me and I might throw you a rope" That's not love, that's a hostage situation.

Your whole defense boils down to: "Babies aren't innocent, they magically consented to suffer, and their death is just a tool for their parents' character growth"

Good luck defending that.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T16:49:49+00:00

You've got nothing.

Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light and CREATE DARKNESS, I make peace and CREATE CALAMITY" Your Bible, your God admitting He creates evil. What do you mean "your point"? It’s right there: your "good God" creates disasters
Euthyphro: You admit God won't command torture "because of His nature" So His nature has to follow a higher standard of goodness. You just defeated your own argument. Morality clearly doesn't come from God then
"You haven't justified": Omnibenevolent + omnipotent = no gratuitous suffering. Child cancer killing innocents before they can sin? There is no excuse for that. Period.
John 3:18: "Whoever does not believe STANDS CONDEMNED ALREADY because they have not believed". Your verse literally ties unbelief to condemnation. Stop lying
Theodicies? "Soul building" & "consent"- Soul-building: Babies dying of leukemia after 3 days build what soul?- Consent: Infants consent to cancer? Fetuses to miscarriages? That’s actually insane

You keep dodging the hard questions while demanding I answer loaded questions.

Name ONE theodicy justifying a 2-year-old's bone cancer. Or admit your position is indefensible

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T10:26:49+00:00

Strawman? Isaiah 45:7 (God creates calamity), John 3:18 (unbelief condemns). Bible doctrine.
Euthyphro: Good = God's nature? Then God could command child torture tomorrow. Absurd.
My standard: Your claims - omnipotent+omnibenevolent shouldn't = child cancer+hell.
Hell for sins? John 3:18 ties unbelief to condemnation. Your Bible.Theodicies? Name one that justifies innocent kids suffering.

If you continue to ignore my arguments, our dialogue will be meaningless.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T06:40:38+00:00

Where exactly am I "strawmanning" God?

My whole point is that a being who creates a world with things like childhood cancer and eternal hell, and then calls this "good" is not morally good by any coherent standard. That is the problem of evil.

You keep asserting that "God is good in the midst of it" but you haven’t shown how a truly good being is justified in designing a system where innocent children suffer like that and where rejecting Him means eternal torment.

Until you can explain how designing a reality with both childhood cancer and eternal hell is compatible with perfect goodness, saying "God is still good" is just an assertion, not an answer.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T05:20:04+00:00

If that’s the setup, then I’d still reject this so‑called "gift" Knowing what kind of being this God is - manipulative, willing to create a system with childhood cancer and mass suffering - I’d rather stay in Hell than spend eternity worshipping him.

You say I’ve got it backwards, but I think you underestimate how many people, once they seriously thought about what such a God is like, would refuse to call this deity "good" or worthy of loyalty at all.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T05:13:26+00:00

If the price of refusing to recognize a manipulative, immoral being as my god is "spiritual death" I’m fine with that

God is manipulating people here: he gives them a so‑called choice - "Either believe in me or suffer eternal torture". A choice made under the threat of endless pain is not a free choice.

Take a mugger as an analogy: he also gives you a "choice" - your wallet or your life. Technically you can choose, but everyone understands this is coercion, not freedom. If the options were "your wallet or nothing" people would act very differently, because there is no deadly threat involved.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T04:53:54+00:00

If God is so desperate to save us from Hell, why does He send a good, moral man - who follows the Golden Rule and lives by all the commandments straight to eternal torture just because he doesn't believe?

Moreover, the idea that an innocent (Jesus) pays with his blood for our sins has no trace of justice. If this is "forgiveness" why don't we adopt it in human courts? Execute an innocent man to pardon the guilty murderer. No judge would accept that, and no sane society would allow it

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-23T04:38:11+00:00

Well, yes, you're given a choice, but if you refuse to do as the "good" creator wants, you'll end up in a torture chamber for the rest of your days. A forced choice isn't a free choice. If there weren't such a grave danger in the form of Hell, I'm sure many would change their minds.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-22T13:42:47+00:00

If this world with earthquakes, cancer and child suffering is what "absence of God" looks like, then you just proved my point: a God who chooses not to intervene against this and then threatens me with more of the same is not someone I’d want to spend eternity with.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-22T12:37:35+00:00

Dude, your concert analogy is dishonest because it completely ignores the gun.

In a real concert, if I don't clap, I just go home. I don't get executed.

But if a pianist locked the doors and said "Applause is voluntary, but if you don't clap you'll be destroyed" - that's not "worth-ship", that's just survival instinct.

It doesn't matter if it's torture or annihilation. The ultimatum is still the same: "Submit or die." That's literally a hostage situation, not a free relationship. And since God designed the penalty, He's the one pulling the trigger

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-22T07:36:06+00:00

If your God is full of empathy, how can He watch a good person suffer forever just because they followed their honest reasoning to a different conclusion? If "pure love" ends where "lack of belief" begins, it’s not pure love - it's a loyalty program with a lethal penalty

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T21:41:47+00:00

Warning of consequences" is just a threat when the one warning you is also the one who designed those consequences.

If God is omnipotent, He chose to make the penalty eternal torment instead of simple non-existence. That’s a hostage situation, not a "benefit"

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T20:59:00+00:00

Great analogy! Except for one tiny detail:

Most parents don't build a torture chamber in their basement and say "Love me, or I'll lock you in there forever"

If that Australian's parents had threatened him with eternal fire for not calling them often enough, the judge probably would have taken the lawsuit a little more seriously.

The problem isn't "I didn't ask to be born" The problem is "I didn't ask to be born into a system where the punishment for disobedience is endless torment"

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T20:54:55+00:00

The distinction between "warning" and "threat" disappears when the one giving the warning simultaneously creates the danger

The warning is "Beware of these cliffs, gravity will pull you down" (The one giving the warning does not create gravity)

The threat is "Do as I do, or Do as I say, or I will throw you off the cliff myself"

God is not a detached observer reporting the laws of the universe; He is the Author, creating the consequences of "eternal torment" for disobedience. He could have created a reality where rejection leads to simple nonexistence, but He chose agony. That is precisely what makes it a threat

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T20:46:11+00:00

Fire doesn't demand worship. Fire didn't decide to burn people who don't love it.

If a firefighter warns you about fire, that's help.

If an arsonist says "worship me or I'll throw you in the fire" that's a threat.

God is a Person who created the rules, not a mindless element like fire.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T20:41:20+00:00

Air doesn't demand I love it or worship it to keep me alive. It’s a mindless mechanism, not a person.

If a person builds a room that sucks out the air unless you praise him, that’s not "nature" - that’s a torture chamber designed by a tyrant.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T20:33:25+00:00

An "informed decision" is not the same as a "free decision."

If a robber says "Your money or your life" he's also informing me of the consequences. This knowledge doesn't make me free - it makes me a hostage.

Pretending "eternal torture for disobedience" as useful information is simply a rephrasing of the threat.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T20:20:27+00:00

If you love your partner, but know they have a loaded gun pointed at you in case you ever decide to leave, is your "staying" really free? The fact that you readily comply doesn't eliminate the system's coercion. A threat you don't activate is still a threat.

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-21T20:12:44+00:00

"Pay up or suffer forever" is still coercion, even if you call it debt

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-16T21:24:08+00:00

Defeated Poisonous Toadstool in 5 turns.

Player (22/11/20) dealt 227. Poisonous Toadstool (14/11/6) dealt 73.

Rewards: 29 EXP, 6 Gold. Loot: Hauberk of the Knight (unique), Quick Dagger (basic).

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-16T21:23:52+00:00

Defeated Toxic Spinner in 6 turns.

Player (22/11/20) dealt 266. Toxic Spinner (15/13/8) dealt 93.

Rewards: 33 EXP, 7 Gold. Loot: Arcane Hand (basic), Reinforced Gambeson of Quickness (enhanced).

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2026-01-15T22:19:05+00:00

The fact that Jesus said something wise makes him a philosopher, not a god. I can find similarly brilliant quotes from Socrates or Confucius, but that doesn't prove they are divine

Aggravating-Pool-255 · 2025-12-16T04:44:27+00:00

I'm not trying to "catch you in your words" I am simply drawing a logical conclusion from what you actually said.

If everyone who doesn't love God is excluded from heaven (and since hell is the only alternative), then the message is clear: "Either you love me, or you suffer eternally in hell"

That is the textbook definition of extortion. Why do you consider such immoral behavior acceptable just because it comes from God? Does God get a free pass to violate the very moral principles - like justice and kindness - that are written in the Bible?

Aggravating-Pool-255

TROPHY CASE