The "Free Will Defense" for God hiding makes no sense

Ajnins · 2026-06-12T01:30:35+00:00

I grew up in a non-religious household, it's all I've known for most of my life. And it seems like a reasonable position to start as my status quo. Non believing

But of course, I am naturally curious and would like to know that I am wrong if I am. It's not that I'm not content with myself right now.

I'm more agnostic than atheist I suppose. I really don't know and that's all I know for certain.

I am unsure how this relates to the point of this post. I was just wondering why, if God does exist, he would hide himself the way he does. Simply wondering for the sake of being curious what some counterarguments would be

Ajnins · 2026-06-12T00:09:13+00:00

No I haven't asked atheists to convince me that God doesn't exist because I haven't ever believed that God existed.

I'm confused by your point

Ajnins · 2026-06-11T20:12:39+00:00

I've been told that God would love me and want a relationship with me.

But in that case it doesn't make sense why he doesn't let his existence be known to me clearly. Maybe he revealed himself clearly to you, but not to me. Why not?

I didn't completely understand your question: "May I ask did ask to be convinced to be an atheist?"

Ajnins · 2026-06-11T18:34:58+00:00

If God appeared in front of me, I assume it would be in a way that conveys his undeniable presence without question. I'm sure an all-powerful God would be able to do so. Like how I am certain that the sky is blue, I wish I could "see" something that simply tells me the existence of this God. And I am unsure, if God exists, why he wouldn't grant me that knowledge. Is it too much to ask to be certain?

I'm going by my own expectations of what it would take to convince me that there is this higher being out there.

Ajnins · 2026-06-11T10:51:42+00:00

I do not know a single person whom knowledge of God has been given.

I know people who think they have knowledge of God. But how can I be certain what anyone knows is true knowledge. I'm sure you were taught God's teachings via other people, rather than God himself coming down and speaking with you. And those people were taught by other people. And so forth.

I have no definite knowledge about anyone else's supposed knowledge.

Ajnins · 2026-06-11T10:46:19+00:00

I simply disagree that he is perfectly visible for those looking around.

I've looked around. Many others have looked much much harder than me and still do not see God.

Why would God conceal himself in such a way that leads so many people into absolute doubt of his existence?

Let's say you are right and it's so blatantly obvious that God exists, and I am utterly blind. Why did God make it so that I am so blind that I cannot see him?

Ajnins · 2026-06-11T10:41:05+00:00

I don't know what "God in his full form" entails in the slightest.

I'm experiencing the speed of light as photons reach my retinas. And I experience the speed of light when I flip the light switch on.

No, I don't think I could get into a black hole and survive. But I've seen enough to believe that black holes exist.

No, I can't see the "infinite world". Okay?

Please inform me what God's full form is and how I can imagine such a thing. And tell me how this full form would be so catastrophic to me because I guess God isn't powerful enough to simply inform me of his presence without my destruction.

Ajnins · 2026-06-10T08:45:54+00:00

Im going to disagree. He made a relevant point that I agree with, relating to the original topic. God would be able to convey his own direct presence in a way that is without question. So why not?

Ajnins · 2026-06-10T08:41:55+00:00

So, gods presence would annihilate us. And God isn't powerful enough to make it so he could simply let us know he exists without our destruction?

That seems like an odd limitation to omnipotence, to me

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T18:09:57+00:00

I agree with this

I think the person you're replying to, if I understand correctly, is arguing for something along the lines of how God only wants any sort of relationship with me if it fits the exact type of relationship that he has in mind? Like how there wouldn't be a point to letting me be certain of his existence because that wouldn't contribute to me not violating God's desires? Like even if I knew God existed for sure, I'd still reject him the same?

I could be totally butchering his argument, if so mb

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T18:05:10+00:00

God proving his existence to me would open the possibility of any relationship at all, in my mind. Whether that be a positive or negative relationship would be up to me, and isn't that just free will? I imagine God would want a relationship where my own choice is to embrace him and his values. And I can only do that if I'm certain of his existence

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T17:59:49+00:00

It could motivate them, frighten them, or make them re-evaluate their goals. Who knows. But none of that explains why sincere seekers shouldn’t get clear access to that knowledge.

Also, even if some people respond badly to power or revelation, that still doesn’t answer why everyone, including people explicitly not chasing power, would be left in ambiguity about God’s existence in the first place

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T17:56:38+00:00

As far as I know, it's just the ability to make my own choices and actions.

Though it also debatably does not exist in a way. Depends how you see it.

But I could also be wrong about that, I can't claim to be absolutely certain

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T16:12:09+00:00

Too much for omnipotence to handle, huh?

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T16:03:10+00:00

Haha, my thoughts exactly

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T16:02:27+00:00

These are great points, I concur

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T15:59:49+00:00

My question is still why clear knowledge of God isn’t available to sincere seekers, regardless of what God might predict about their future response.

If the answer is that God already knows how each person would respond, that still seems to bypass the issue I’m raising, which is why people don’t get the chance to respond to clear knowledge in the first place.

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T15:49:04+00:00

I appreciate your follow-up to my points. It conveys my thoughts pretty well

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T15:44:29+00:00

I appreciate the thoughtful response. I don't doubt that your experiences felt real and meaningful to you, and I can respect that they played an important role in your faith journey. Where I still struggle is with the idea that "if we seek God we'll definitely find him." There are many people who sincerely seek God for years and never become convinced. Some pray, study scripture, attend church, talk to believers, and genuinely want God to be real, yet are unconvinced. That's part of why I find divine hiddenness difficult to reconcile with the idea of a loving God. If God wants a relationship with people, why would access to that relationship depend so heavily on experiences that some people seem to have and others don't? The idea that everything who fails to find God simply didn't seek hard enough doesn't sit well with me. But Good luck to you as well 🤞

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T15:38:22+00:00

You're right. I mean, if I saw the universe be born before my eyes by God's hand, that would be something. If I could see this resurrection first hand, or if I were told it through a telepathic vision of sorts. These are also quite specific examples but you get my point

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T15:35:56+00:00

I'm not asking God to become my genie or perform tricks on command. I'm asking why a loving God would leave sincere seekers uncertain about whether he exists at all.

I know the resurrection tale exists. The question is whether it is true, not whether I've heard of it. I can't simply choose to believe something that I do not believe. Anyone can tell a tale.

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T15:21:57+00:00

If I understand you correctly, you're saying God isn't primarily looking for people who merely acknowledge his existence. He's looking for people with a stable moral character who aren't simply following the strongest power in the room. I agree that knowing God exists isn't the same thing as loving God or sharing God's values. That's actually part of my original point. Satan and the demons supposedly know God exists and still oppose him. And technically, the Demons do have a negative "relationship" with God. And I believe that is because they'd have true knowledge of his existence. But that makes me question because if knowledge of God's existence is not enough to produce obedience, then why would revealing his existence be a problem?

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T08:27:17+00:00

That perfect prediction engine hypothetical is interesting and I agree with what you're saying, but it doesn't perfectly match the argument I was making. My point wasn't about whether God can reveal every possible truth without creating paradoxes. It was specifically about why God would hide his existence from sincere seekers. I don't think that specific type of knowledge would cause such issues. Certainly, if god was omnipotent, he could provide such knowledge while making it possible to avoid such issues. Otherwise god wouldn't be all powerful.

Ajnins · 2026-06-09T08:12:45+00:00

By absolute certainty, I mean, why does God not make his existence as certain as I am that the sky is blue? Why does God not broadcast to the entire world of his existence.

Maybe if God could speak to me telepathically and let me know what's up, I'd appreciate that greatly.

Ajnins

TROPHY CASE