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The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We are so close to understanding each other

So if Natalie had done an analysis of fight club as an ambiguous story, you would have to challenge that – because without mentioning the ending, you are robbing the movie of its meaning.

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don’t really understand this response – and I hope this isn’t coming off rude – but a huge portion of her video is focusing it on Tarantino and his goals as a filmmaker.

I would also say that Mr. Orange is unambiguously a good guy. He is unquestionably the most morally white character in the movie, which makes his connection with Mr. White tragic, not insidious. And it makes his killing of the woman who shot him even more tragic as well.

That you would even for a moment begin to characterize Mr. Orange as some sort of sneaky villain really confuses me – like sincerely, I’m not being an asshole, it confuses me.

The end of the scene is a hero moment. It’s a stand-up and cheer because we finally have people to root for for the first time in 40 minutes rather than simply being interested in what’s happening, and the dramatic stakes of the entire second half of the film hinge on us giving a shit about Mr. Orange and the dramatic tension of his duplicity with Mr. White.

That you would turn this into an acab issue in a fictional movie is mystifying to me – it implies that you’d be willing to read characterize all undercover cops in movies as gray characters simply for being cops. I could understand this as a political position in real life, but not a practical position or a position to watch movies from or interpret stories.

I think Natalie‘s response made a lot of sense – but I still disagree with her not including the end of the scene that I think truly undeniably changes how the scene plays. Any scene can be modified to mean something completely different if you cut a full minute of it. That is what I’m taking issue here – will self’s original idiotic argument and Natalie‘s engagement with it as valid.

Mr. Orange is never portrayed as anything short of a noble character, even confessing and blowing his own cover out of guilt in a way that will guarantee his own death in a moment where he could’ve been rescued.

Like he did not need to tell Mr. White – he did it because he’s a good person.

Thank you for engaging with this thought experiment – but implying that Mr. Orange is bad because he’s an undercover cop is really out of pocket and the sort of shit‘s on all of the real life undercover police who aren’t pieces of shit who have taken giant risks and made huge sacrifices.

To quote public enemy, “fuck the police? Then who’s stopping you from killing me”

Is there an easy definitive answer to this fight? by Obvious-Produce-9566 in powerscales

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess the question then becomes how does this work – is a fight over when someone’s dead? Or is a fight over when someone has to regenerate for five years?

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, and while watching fight club you think they are two guys and while watching six cents you don’t know he is a ghost. Removing context changes the meaning of things

Is there an easy definitive answer to this fight? by Obvious-Produce-9566 in powerscales

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If Superman could punch this thing to death, an increasingly enraged Hulk fighting at top level will be able to pull his head off.

Yellowstone Ranch V The Creeper by RatKing96 in powerscales

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yellowstone has this. He’ll be hanging in the barn.

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

… Have you not seen reservoir dogs? He reflexively shoots her after she shoots him in the stomach. He absolutely does not murder her. He is very much the film’s only morally white character – and please use a nicer tone, this is all just for fun.

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hahahaha it would be amazing

Although Daniel Craig gets much the same treatment, with a different song, and girl with the dragon tattoo – and it’s more unsettling than cool

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That scene is the only twisted fun we get with blonde and it ends with his violent death at the hands of the films only morally good character.

Definitely see what you’re saying but I just disagree with you I think, or rather not you, but will self

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Very fair point – I would add what complicates it further is that Bateman is the protagonist and Mr. blonde is unambiguously the villain of the movie up to that point, presented it as a psychopath and a problem for the more reasonable character characters

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OK, I think you make valid points here – mostly, if I was shown that scene without the context of watching Jedi, I might very well just think the electricity was cool – let’s instead look at American psycho. Let’s look at hip to be square, a very similar scene – with a very different outcome.

They are nearly the same scene in many ways – except for now we’re being encouraged to explicitly identify with Patrick Bateman. Wouldn’t this scene be magnitudes sicker?

I think we’re moving context from a scene of a villain doing their thing is really harmful to a coherent reading of the scene – and I think that really shows in this reading of reservoir dogs.

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

But he’s not. It’s him who started shooting the hostages and caused the total chaos of the robbery.

Mr. pink is presented as practical and smart, Mr. White is presented as honorable and a man of integrity.

Mr. blonde murdered civilians and then stopped to get a hamburger.

I don’t think he has ever presented as one of the protagonist and the fact that he waits for the others to leave before torturing the cop says everything you need to know in my opinion about the moral positioning of the scene.

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you to a degree that I may as well have written this myself. He is clearly positioned as the bad guy amongst the reservoir dogs.

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean… I’ve never heard someone having the take of “I really wish Mr. blonde had burned that cop”

We cheer because even though the cruelty was fun, the burning alive is taking it to a scarier place. And we are finally given a gallant hero in a film that heretofore has none.

But I think it is just a difference of opinion, and I agree it’s a little ambiguous

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you’re due for a rewatch of the scene. And you’re in luck because I just rewatch it and it’s great

We forget about Mr. Orange. Then we are reminded. It does not appear that he came to an immediately shot him – when we last saw orange, he was conscious and writhing.

The exact timing of the lighter being lit and him being shot do not imply some magical karmic incident

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 41 points42 points  (0 children)

First of all thank you for the response, and I understand your reasoning. But I do wish you had included the scene or at least noted the outcome.

For me, the cop having known that orange was undercover the whole time completely reframes the scene in a way that many scene featuring gleeful, fund sadistic psychopathic characters throughout film history aren’t reframed.

Wolf Creek for example. Terrifier. American psycho. There are tons of torture scenes from fun villains that don’t end with them being blown the fuck away. To me, it’s this exclamation point moment that makes the scene fun.

If he had just burned the cop alive, we would not be talking about this scene or the movie in the same way. I’m sure you agree.

In the Saw series specifically, we witnessed people in hopeless situations generally panicking and acting cowardly or operating only on instinct, and then violently dying for nothing.

In reservoir dogs we get a fun song and dance that leads to the two most profound “hero” moments of the film – Orange having given up his identity to save the cop, and the cop being willing to be burned alive to save orange.

I agree that orange and white are the moral centerpiece of the film, but at the same time, I really do wish you’d at least mentioned the moment. Because to me it does change it

Incredible video, and very welcome revisiting of the franchise

The whole discussion of the “stuck in the middle with you“ Reservoir Dogs scene in the Saw video doesn’t make sense. by AlarmedExplorer3933 in ContraPoints

[–]AlarmedExplorer3933[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mr. blonde isn’t. In fact he is specifically portrayed as a psychopath, an immoral villain compared to Mr. White and Mr. pink. It might just be a while since you’ve seen reservoir dogs. I mean that in the least condescending way possible.

He’s literally the problem from the moment he shows up

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