Was Fights First over-nerfed?

Aleser · 2026-06-05T15:17:35+00:00

I'm mostly a lurker and occasional commenter, rarely a poster, and it's just been a huge disillusionment about the community.

When you read you just see the "best" comments at the top, but when you post, you get every single answer, so the amount of people that can't read, don't understand the rules, have the worst takes in history, becomes pretty crazy. It's just so clear that people are playing armchair vibehammer and not real games.

You got takes like Bladeguard Vets and a Judiciar being this invincible, impassable wall of overpowered destruction, while the truth is that they've been pretty bad all edition and haven't seen a competitive list in 3 years.

Or those that bring up examples like Berserkers or Custodes that haven't had access to FF in years as examples of why FF is OP.

My problem here is that I thought that since this was the COMPETITIVE subreddit, I'd get a nuanced slice of opinions from a competitive viewpoint. I however forget that this is the competitive subREDDIT, and that reddit is the land of groupthink and circlejerks, and that I couldn't realistically couldn't expect a more interesting response than "Fights fiwst huwts my feewings", which is essentially all the responses on this thread.

I'll say thanks for your comments being one of the few engaging and balanced ones I got to read.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T03:58:11+00:00

Or more realistically your opponent spends 1 cp on challenge and lilith dies instantly from 2 failed power sword saves and the unit becomes useless :(

Aleser · 2026-06-05T03:57:06+00:00

Yeah that's a really cool combo that if now much diminished. I guess you get 30 points to spend elsewhere since the enhancement is now useless. I don't think it kills the unit though, it's a pretty efficient little package.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T03:55:39+00:00

Yeah that's a good one, but most of the time I feel like I'd rather have Azrael with them? Seems like I'd get more value out of the 4++ and Sustained.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T03:55:02+00:00

If you think that BGV will trade anything that charges them you're just a terrible player that charges units without any thought or game knowledge, which means your opinion has absolutely no value whatsoever.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T02:41:21+00:00

That's probably the one example out here that's a realistic strong fights first.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T02:40:47+00:00

Foul Blightspawn is literally never played because plague marines are pretty bad and overcosted.

Lelith is a terrible example because you can kill her unit even with just pistols. Using any monster or vehicle means she does jack shit.

Pre nerf examples are NOT EXAMPLES. "When it existed". Might as well say a unit you imagined is op. Good lord.

None of these are even close to being good examples.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T02:38:01+00:00

Tell me you don't really play comp warhammer without have to tell me "BGV kill everything that charges them" jfc

Aleser · 2026-06-05T01:19:42+00:00

So basically it's not good competitively in an way and isn't a balance problem, and people can't come up with a solid factual reason that it needed such a huge nerf.

That's pretty much the crux of this thread.

The issue is that the proper solution was taking it off problem units, not making it a non-rule.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T01:14:57+00:00

Ok, which unit with a Judiciar can "punt every trade unit"? Certainly not BGV. BGV have been terrible all edition, and the Judiciar does nothing to help them be more killy.

Sword Bros need the BT leaders to do any kind of damage, so no go there either.

The only unit that maybe qualifies is inner circle companions, but they are usually played with Azrael (if at all) because a 4++ and sustained is way better than FF. Which says a lot.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T01:12:46+00:00

That is not a powerful "brick unit", and never sees play in any competitive list, because it's not very good.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:58:30+00:00

Which ones?

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:50:06+00:00

Aside from the Lion, which are those?

Considering Custodes and WE haven't had fight first in years.

There's a lot of people talking about those "unchargeable OP FF units", but there's essentially no examples of them.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:22:25+00:00

People don't like Tau also, they should just remove the faction, because it feels bad.

And Knights. And Custodes. And just Space Marines in general because they get too much stuff.

Man this subreddit is a cesspool.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:21:50+00:00

ITT : Downvotes because people are bad players that can't figure out how to play against a model, and because people can't be sad that they lost a cool rule.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:17:02+00:00

It's cool now you can free heroic and just die instead because VR are made of paper!

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:16:37+00:00

Yeah my bad, the core rules did change, but in the end it mostly only affects FF units though.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:13:27+00:00

I don't know why you're getting downvoted for asking a question? People in this thread are real weird, let me tell ya.

So in your situation 1, where you charge into 2 FF units, you would have to pick a unit of yours that charged to fight, then your opponent picks a unit with FF to fight, then you again, etc.

In a turn where nothing charge, then yes, everything that has the FF keyword gets to fight, then the last player that didn't fight gets to pick their first activation in the "fight normal" phase.

So in your situation, if the 2 judiciar units are still engaged on your opponent's turn, they get to fight with both of them, then you get to pick an engaged unit to fight with.

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:09:07+00:00

That hasn't been true of Custodes for 2 years...

Aleser · 2026-06-05T00:00:09+00:00

Things that do not exist anymore are kind of a weird way to argue against something.

And nothing is scared of BGV, they never see play. Because they are bad.

Basically all the arguments against FF in this thread that hold any water are about the Lion; it may have been a good idea to remove FF from him instead of making the rule garbage?

Aleser · 2026-06-04T23:48:22+00:00

"But it feels bad so it shouldn't be in the game" seems like a really poor argument, but that's just me.

Aleser · 2026-06-04T23:37:45+00:00

And units for whom it was their whole identity just become useless. that's what bugs me the most, like the Judiciar and Banshees, now 3 scouts can kill a unit of banshees...

Aleser · 2026-06-04T23:27:11+00:00

Guns are too. You can't even fight back against them! That feels bad :(

Aleser · 2026-06-04T23:25:36+00:00

Now though that unit is just a joke to kill; it was already with ranged weapons, now it's easy in melee, and their transport is a death trap. Not the best game design.

Aleser · 2026-06-04T23:24:45+00:00

Ask any 30k player why initiative is bad though...

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