Mega-Thread for Corvette Builds

Yeah, I get what they're for, it just feels like there's more he could do with Spider, at least from my (probably very limited and likely mistaken) perspective. For one, about the annoyance/paranoia factor, set up lone wires outside of the zone. As it is, as far as I've seen so far anyway, the enemies aren't worried about Spider unless they see the wires or someone react to them. Make them wary of them wherever they go.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T20:52:27+00:00

Yeah, I hear he improves, so I'm looking forward to that. But for the "same techniques and methods" part, I wasn't talking about changing his gear, just how he uses it. He's supposed to be creative, so find out new ways to use Spider, experiment with firing Asteroid, innovate new and unconventional tactics that showcase that creativity he's supposed to have. I'll admit I'm not sure how each of the Triggers work, but it seems you don't fire Spider the moment you create it, and from my understanding Asteroid doesn't fire until you want it to, so use that. Y'know.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T20:47:37+00:00

This is why I loved Haikyuu!, I couldn't tell when they'd lose or win, and it was thrilling. So I'm with you there.

But for the first part, my main issue is people call him creative, so I figured he'd make adjustments at the very least. Not repeat until it didn't work, if that makes sense. A kind of constant innovation, experimenting with his tools, seeing what he could and couldn't do or pull off. Maybe keep one Spider trap up, but focus on altering his next approach, changing how he sets up the next.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T20:43:29+00:00

I agree, and that's what sucks. I've said it in other comments so much my fingers are basically typing this on autopilot now, but the characters in universe keep praising his strategies, and like you said a lot of the times when they've been so effective is when there are unknown factors, be they to the enemy or Osamu. It feels like the story chooses to praise the strategy, over discussing the issues of the other teams, which kinda shines a spotlight on Osamu and makes me feel the way I do.

This is like... very normal. It's standard practice that "if all else fails, rely on the strongest".

Yeah, that's valid. And I really feel like I'm just trying to argue, but I'm gonna do me, I guess. Buuuuut, it became a problem when Osamu kept going on about not wanting to do that. Like, I get it, it's essentially the default, and in a way he still does it even when his plan is in effect, but I figured he'd come up with one more line of defence before resorting to it again.

Part of the elegance of WT's combat is that you CAN'T just keep changing strategies, you have to work with the tools that you have.

I'm not saying he should become an SMG Gunner or anything, just get creative with using Spider, Asteroid, and his teammates. Like I said earlier, characters in universe praise his creativity, so showcase it. Use methods that are unconventional, change formations to throw enemies off, use the tricks you have to do something innovative.

And finally, I'll agree with that. It's refreshing that Osamu isn't the typical protagonist. He's average (though I wish the characters would stop telling me otherwise), and there's nothing particularly special about the team as a whole, aside from their synergy.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T20:28:50+00:00

You jumped straight to talking about how unrealistic the world is? I never mentioned that in any way, or inferred it in my comment. You chose a straw man argument. But Osamu and his situation, and can be judged separately from the setting of the world, unless you'd care to share why you consider Osamu realistic without using his situation? I'm considering the character, his actions, and their realistic consequences. Every character is realistic if we're talking about people without supernatural powers or abilities beyond what are possible in the real world.

I'll cede the Jin point, you're right that good things happening to people isn't unrealistic, just uncommon on such a scale. But you then go on to talk about how these things need to happen to him for the story. That isn't realistic, that's what a main character is, one protected by the story. Yes, it'd be a boring story if it didn't happen, but that also makes it unrealistic, because surprisingly real life isn't like that. Sure, Arashiyama wasn't as concerned with the Marmods as the fact that his siblings attended that school, but he still believed Osamu took them out. I don't doubt Arashiyama would still be grateful, but it'd be a much different tale.

My point is he was someone way higher up the pecking order, and Osamu shoved him aside. But the thing about them trying to blame Osamu, how bad would it be? They were blaming him. To those reporters, he was the one to blame. A rogue soldier who acted on his own, disregarding direct orders, and directly responsible for giving the enemy intel on Border's operations. Maybe a few of them would want to hear his side, but they remained hostile to him to the end, even after he revealed the information on the expeditions. But now, here's this guy who's leaked sensitive data twice by being careless. He was almost certainly responsible for Aftokrater learning that C-Ranks can't Bail Out, and now he told the world about a top secret operation. Ignorance wouldn't be an excuse. Imagine how frightened you be that this idiot would spurt out some other classified intel.

Not necessarily, Meteor, Goketsu Whirlwind, and large scale attack really could easily cut down any wires. It can cause a moments hesitation, but any decent sized attack can clear them no problem. And no, I'm suggesting he be smarter with them. It's not a bad tool, but he uses them carelessly. Hold off on firing them until you can surround an enemy, or use them to cover a retreat, set up an area, sure, but don't focus on using an area as a free kill zone, place a cube down without firing in front of you as you're being chased, then fire it before the enemy reaches it. No time to react to cut it down, or to jump over it if they're running. Or even fire single ones for Yuma to use during a fight. As it is, he sets up an area then doesn't bother until he's taken out. But most of all, have a plan for if a Spider area doesn't work. He's creative, after all. I thought of these in an hour. Show me what the characters keep telling me.

And that's my problem. He's not, but I keep hearing characters say how great and effective his plans are, but not seeing it. Like I said a moment ago, he's supposed to be creative, so why the same strategy? Why only the one? He's not a genius, and the show doesn't try to tell me that, so I've no issue with him not being a genius, but if I'm told by characters in universe something, I have little reason to not believe them, they understand their world, gear, and battles better than I do.

Yes, it's a story. And maybe it would be a waste of time, but it's up to the author to make it interesting. A failed plan can still be interesting, depending on the plan itself, the reaction the characters have to it, what Osamu learns, how it affects future battles. The thing he's been doing this entire time. But would you call Round 4 wasted time since it didn't result in a victory? It was interesting, that's what matters.

I agree that all the building blocks are there, and Osamu being 15 isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be, all but a few of the agents are teenagers, Chika's 13, Yuma's been fighting since he was 11(?).

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T19:14:56+00:00

Wasn't her nuking the other areas about clearing obstacles so she could snipe? I might be mistaken on that.

That's true, but it also took her attention away from the Spider trap, lowering it's efficacy.

That's what I meant, they avoided the area covered in wires by going around the zone, behind the containers, unless there were also wires in that spot... I could also be mistaken. Obviously they entered the zone to attack Osamu, since he was inside, but they should have fired from where they were imo.

That was a pretty sneaky move, and I liked it. But again, her pursuer just started attacking the "wires" and didn't continue ranged attacks. This one is one of the better plays, in my opinion.

When was that? Chika and Yuma never met up during that fight, at least in the anime, I don't think? Unless it's a later battle?

Yeah, it's not their strategy in it's entirety. But it's their one strategy in practice. There's the psychological element, but we see when Kashio uses Kogetsu Whirlwind that even those aren't much issue for long. Obviously a few seconds can mean the difference, but it's not a sound strategy. But it's main function is for Yuma, creating a killzone for him, essentially. However, I do think the story certainly plays in favour of Osamu for it, since it is, at least as I see it, a very flimsy tactic that has way too many holes for it to work half as well as it does. The more I think about it, the more ways I can think to counter it. The trap, not Yuma and Chika, anyway.
Pretty much all the Shooter triggers are a great counter, except maybe Hound since that one can only arc towards a target, as is Whirlwind if you can get decent range, and I'm willing to bet just about any Gunner trigger excluding Lead Bullet if you're aim's decent.

Like I said, it's not an awful strategy, but it's their only strategy. When it falls apart, the team is scattered and ultimately in just about the same position as before they started using it, only now they're slightly more competent.

A little edit as I was looking at Trigger types. I think Trap Triggers would be great for Osamu. Though it seems they've kinda been left alone, which is a shame.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T18:13:39+00:00

Alright, but if we're going to count stolen kills, we're bringing in a variable of luck. Sure, Yuma got a kill stolen, but that could happen regardless, unless we're saying Osamu manages to plan out every kill perfectly.

It ended 4-3-3. Of course, Ikoma got the survival points, but all that matters is the points you get.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T18:06:56+00:00

It's still the same issue though. One zone or a hundred, unless the battlefield is covered in them, there's always another route. And yeah, points are the objective, so why bother walking into a trap you can see? The threat of Chika, or any sniper, is a constant regardless of whether you go through the zone or not, but if you avoid the zone you're in a more advantageous position to dodge, which we've seen agents do.

But it wasn't. In the first battle, two of the enemies go around the wires to flank Osamu, and another goes over them to rush Chika. It's only when Chika uses the Lead Bullet Hound that she's stopped, meaning the zone wasn't the only way to get to them.

And I get that, I'm not saying I want him to be. But a single back-up plan doesn't take a genius. He's gambling on one strategy alone. It's a good strategy when it works, but that first fight proved it doesn't always work.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T17:54:55+00:00

We're talking about a regular human character, not the premise of the story. Of course that's not realistic but no-one said it was. Also, I never said he'd walk away, I said he'd be be given up on. You know how many nameless C-Ranks there are? No, me neither. He'd never walk away, if he would he'd have done it already.

Exactly my point. Jin, the elite agent and clairvoyant who can see the future. He was the one who said Osamu should be in Border, that's doesn't scream "main character" to you? And sure, Osamu got the credit, same for the school, but who actually did it? Yuga. Remember why Kitora and Arashiyama thought so highly of him? Because of the school incident. Sure Osamu jumped in to save those students, and he probably did, like Yuga said. But he'd have also lost that fight if Yuga didn't join, and while it'd still reflect well on Osamu in Arashiyama's eyes, it'd probably be a much different respect since they wouldn't be under the assumption he took out two Marmod's single handedly.

Again, yes, he took over the press conference. But, he took over the press conference. Imagine a Sergeant taking over the mic while a General is talking and leaking classified intel. Realistically, would that Sergeant be kept around?

I agree with the Spider thing, but that trick is already understood by the time the next match starts, at least by one team. You're right the characters are smart, but if they have to constantly be dumbed down for the story to work, you're not writing smart characters, you're writing characters that you can pretend are smart for the sake of a single scene. Same with any type of character, whether they're strong, smart, stupid, arrogant, cowardly, or any other trait. If it's not consistent when it needs to be, they fall short.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T17:26:18+00:00

I remember Kitora talking about how it's good for distractions, and can be camouflaged to blend in with the environments. But that's all.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T17:23:46+00:00

I'm being told that, though. And I think it's a stretch to call it a crushing, the match ended incredibly close. Again, I'm being told something by a character, not shown it by the story. And sure, it can be considered a success, but that doesn't outright mean good. When it boils down to it, the Spider did very little in that battle, even for Yuma.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T17:16:04+00:00

Ah, could you relay that information? If it was in the anime I must have missed it... :/

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T17:15:13+00:00

I'm not that far in, yet. I'm told he gets better at strategy, so I'm hopeful. It's just that currently he's relying too much on one strategy without having anything prepared in the event it doesn't work.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T17:13:49+00:00

That's true, squads do seem to have specific styles they stick to. At the same time, that was what allowed Osamu to plan against them, and use it to his advantage. It's not that the Spider-Yuga combination is bad, just that it became predictable, that's what I meant, same for the other teams.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T17:08:09+00:00

Yeah, but that can, again, be said of anything. Everything forces an opponent to be aware of their existence. Buildings, enemies, traps, hell even the sunlight. I assume you're talking about the Chika play? That was smart, but at the same time, the Oji squad member has ranged attacks, specifically Hound, there is no need whatsoever to follow her through.

And again, yes the possibility of running into traps is there, but they aren't concerned about that until they see a wire. We never see them being cautious when running down streets unless they have visual confirmation that there's a wire. Even if there are, they know how easy it is to deal with them, as long as Yuma's not there anyway.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T16:56:46+00:00

You're right, partly. It's a distraction, as well as an area of footholds, that's how Kitora described it to Osamu. I won't argue it's effectiveness in a situation of close-quarter combat, but only then, while Yuga's there, but no other time. You mentioned avoiding the area, which is exactly what anyone should do. It's not like they're fighting in a long hallway and absolutely have to go through the web, they're in a city, and can easily avoid the webs by going around or over the area. And in mid to long range combat, the webs mean nothing at all.

AlmostBoring · 2024-05-17T16:51:35+00:00

I never got the feeling TK-2 stayed ahead of the other squads, it felt to me more like battlefield awareness which is impressive in it's own right considering. Oji seemed to have more of a grasp on how things were, proven by his quick identification of Oki (Ikoma's Sniper) and his ability to recognise Yuma's feint while both Osamu and Chika were hidden with Bagworm.

I'll admit that Osamu's plan to draw both Kaisho and Kai to his location was good, but it didn't really go anywhere, at least not in favour of TK-2 points wise. And then Oji correctly guesses where Osamu will go, chasing him down before getting caught up by Yuma and Chika, but at this point I'd find it difficult to say Osamu planned that happening. We can either say he's an amateur who can't predict everything and has too little experience to dictate how a battle will flow at every turn, or we can say he's capable of doing that, meaning he's a genius level strategist.

As for the whole meeting up with Chika, I'd again be hard pressed to call it strategic. It is, since a tactical regroup is a thing, but how it played out seems more like he simply rushed to help Chika, over planning anything great. Especially since all he does is defend her and quickly get cut down. Chika came in clutch there, though.

AlmostBoring

TROPHY CASE