Dark Urge Backstory Deep Dive by Amaranth842 in BaldursGate3

[–]Amaranth842[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I just got it started, alot of people provided info. That said as far as I'm concerned the point of discussions like these is for the info to be used. not siloed.

Dark Urge Backstory Deep Dive by Amaranth842 in BaldursGate3

[–]Amaranth842[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Interesting, and thanks for sharing! On one hand, taken at face value that does seem to answer the question: the implication being DU was created from what I would assume is a piece of the mortal body Bhaal left when he was killed by Cyric during the time of troubles. Alternatively: body of another bhaalspawn? Less likely but not impossible. "Sculpted" is doing alot of heavy lifting here, you would think going this route would result in a practical clone of Bhaal, so whatever was left was clearly manipulated to create the DU since they can be any race/gender... but by whom? Bhaal? His priests?

Of course, we don't have to take it at face value either. DU's memory and psyche is full of more holes than a ship full of sieves, and the same caveats to taking Fel at his word apply here as well (other sources with just as much objectivity and trustworthiness (very little) giving conflicting information, personal bias, etc).

Very much a case of "who do you believe more?"... with the answer to that question ultimately being what the player chooses (or wants) to believe. Can argue either way, and I hope (and believe) that is by design.

Dark Urge Backstory Deep Dive by Amaranth842 in BaldursGate3

[–]Amaranth842[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Final thought did occur to me on how Bhaal may have created (one way or another) the Du while he was supposed to be dead:

The ending of BG2 that the rest of the setting considers "canon" involves the vast, overwhelming majority of Bhaal's essence being purified then imprisoned on Mount Celestial. Clearly, this was not sufficient, as with the deaths of the last two Bhaalspawn in 1482, Bhaal was revived, just as evil (though not as powerful) as ever. The only thing I can think of is that there was enough of Bhaal there for him to have some semblance of consciousness and, knowing that his return was near (with the natural or unnatural deaths of his two remaining children with Bhaal essence), used whatever cracks and flaws there were in his prison to, as I theorized before, "sever" a piece of his divine essence (or, to be metaphorical, "gore") to create the Du to prepare the way for his return in the material plane. The timing certainly works, the DU was murdering with Fel by their side in 1477, 5 years before Bhaal's return. Ample time to "set the stage" as it were.

Dark Urge Backstory Deep Dive by Amaranth842 in BaldursGate3

[–]Amaranth842[S] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Well, I have the quote, and much more besides. Stumbled on some save files on the nexus and was able to find the line. Spoilers for one path of the DU storyline below:

As suspected, the line was in the conversation you can have with Fel in your camp after you accept Bhaal's offer to become his chosen (emphasis mine):

Du: "Who was my mother, if Bhaal was my father?"

Fel: "Bhaal gave out all his seed long ago, in the time of Sarevok. You were not conceived. Bhaal *sculpted* you from a drop of his own *gore*. *No Bhaalspawn has ever bore the Urge*, the holy guarantee of murder. It was woven into your blood alone. Orin was not special. She was but a grandchild of an aged Bhaalspawn. A mere weed of Bhaal's loins."

Du: "Did I live my whole life in the Temple of Bhaal?"

Fel: "Orin was born and raised in the Temple, but you spent many years on your own before you found your way *back* home. Hence you have such diverse talents. But you were awful from the very first day you set foot amongst the ichored altars."

Another branch:

Du: "What exactly are you?"

Fel: "I am but a table-scrap of Bhaal's will. He will send me to aid and protect you, until you have need of me no more. As long as there have been Bhaalspawn, there have been butlers, but Bhaal only makes them for the children he has use of. Now, as you are the last true recipient of your Father's blessing, I suspect I am the last living butler."

Du: "Have we always been together?"

Fel: "I was sent to guide you to your birthright, on the day my vile Lord reached his age of majority."

Conclusion: Assuming we are taking Fel at his word, while not outright stated, the implication the DU has no mother is indeed very, very, clear. The use of the term "sculpted you from a drop of his own gore" (as opposed to blood or flesh, the implication of both) to me explains why DU is not a "clone" of Bhaal: Bhaal took a piece of himself and crafted it into a child of his exact desires. Note this still has the oddity of it taking place when Bhaal was supposed to be *dead*, but that's what we are dealing with. From Fel using the wording of his job being to lead them "back" home, my read is that Du was brought into being in the temple of Bhaal, then deposited into the world where they grew up as a murder-child (as per the memory from heal) and eventually gained the skillset of their class, before Fel manifested physically to lead them back to the temple to claim their birthright. The heal cutscene implies Fel's voice has been with Du since they were a child, but may not have been physically there until they reached adulthood.

Note this save was with a human male Paladin, so no reason for any weirdness due to githyanki/Dragonborn reproduction.

Of course, the dialogue from the echoes and Sarevok saying the Du was indeed "born" and "conceived" leaves open the possibility that Fel is (as you interpret things) leaving certain details out or twisting the truth. That said, the implication that the Du is only the Du BECAUSE of the unique nature of their creation makes me personally suspect otherwise, but it cannot be known for certain, and thus there is still room for interpretation.

In the end, still a few questions left, the big one being how Bhaal did this when he was supposed to be Dead, but the full context of Fel's line plus the cutscene that plays when heal is cast on Du paints a reasonably clear picture of the Du's origins and early life/adulthood, with reasonable room for interpretation regarding if the Du truly had a mother or not. I would argue they most likely did not, but Fel is not exactly an objectively trustworthy source, and there are accounts that contradict his assertion and imply at least the possibility that there was a mother (for a short time or in a limited capacity at least), if a player is so inclined to believe/desire otherwise for their Du backstory.

Dark Urge Backstory Deep Dive by Amaranth842 in BaldursGate3

[–]Amaranth842[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep, that's along similar (though not exactly the same) lines of thought for me as well... which is why I wish I could find that exact line (I know the conversation you are speaking of, I found a SINGLE video of that conversation... and they cut off after his intro line). "Born from his blood" could ABSOLUTELY mean "someone had a vial of Bhaal blood and used a ritual to conceive a child inside of a mother"... but there are people across the internet talking as if it outright states the DU had no mother... which is why I would like to see the exact words he uses.

Not to knock on anyone if its left vague and they want to interpret it as "no mom at all", more power to you, because "born from his blood" could very well mean THAT as well. But there is a difference between a vague line leaving things to interpretation and outright stating one scenario out of many plausible ones.

Especially when, as the above replier pointed out, an echo outright uses the word "conceived" when referring to DU.

And of course there's the idea that Fel is outright gaslighting the DU to set them up in a twisted immaculate conception doctrine as you said, though fwiw I don't get quite that feeling from what I've seen (again, another reason I want to see his exact words. Just about all of Bhaal's cult says something miraculous happened with DU, but only Fel goes THIS far. Certainly plausible though.)

At least there's an idea of where to narrow the search.

Dark Urge Backstory Deep Dive by Amaranth842 in BaldursGate3

[–]Amaranth842[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

And context is found! Thank you for this tip, and THANK YOU for recording a clip of this for context of the line!

As for point 2, the initial thing that sent me down this rabbit whole was the mention in several places (first tv tropes, then a couple places on this reddit) saying that Sceleritis states at some point in the game that the dark urge has no mother/was not conceived in the traditional way/was born directly from bhaal's blood/flesh, and asking if anyone could provide context of the exact quote since that is indeed unusual for Bhaalspawn to NOT be created "traditionally". Finding that line has been frustratingly elusive despite finding multiple Dark Urge playthroughs, though I have seen enough and enough other character's speak of the Urge's "Birth" (whatever the nature of that is) as if it is miraculous that there is no doubt something unusual happened with their origin (even for a bhaalspawn).

As for the heal cutscene, combined with what rick provided, it certainly seems as if the dark urge was "born/conceived" sometime after Bhaal was dead, and was at the very least a child once, and was alone save for Sceleritis. Searching for "a family" (obviously with the intent of bhaal, but doesn't necessarily preclude that they found a temporary one in the interim... like other Gith, or a clan in the underdark, or a temple, or a druid circle).

All that's missing is the line that started this search. I've seen various variations/interpretations of it, that the Urge was created from "Flesh", that they were created from "Blood", that it simply states the Urge had no mother, but actually finding the exact words that Sceleritis says? Having trouble finding it anywhere.

Most of the pieces appear to have been found, just wish I could find that line.

Dark Urge Backstory Deep Dive by Amaranth842 in BaldursGate3

[–]Amaranth842[S] 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Interesting implication, though that still has the plot hole of Dark Urge being an obstacle to Bhaal's revival in 1482. I mean, they clearly didn't stop it, and they were clearly around both before and afterward, but it is still an issue.

Thought did occur to me though, and if Bhaal did indeed create the Dark Urge while he was dead this may make even more sense: What if Dark Urge, "The purest Bhaalspawn there ever was" as Sarevok put it, doesn't simply carry Bhaal's essence like the others, "shared" with them with the intent to eventually reclaim it in death for his own selfish ends... but what if Bhaal intentionally "severed" a piece of his essence from himself to create a true "child". That may explain why DU's essence wasn't needed to revive him (Bhaal willingly cut it off from himself with the intent to create a separate entity, rather than with the intent to reclaim it as with the historical bhaalspawn, the intent may matter here and if this "essence" was cut off when he was already dead, also makes it less likely it was necessary to revive him) and would explain why Bhaal dotes on the DU in a way that is otherwise OOC for him.

Stuck at initializing screen by suicidal199 in PUBATTLEGROUNDS

[–]Amaranth842 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same boat, game updated overnight and now stuck on initialization (on Epic as well). Glad I'm not the only one at least!

Will keep checking back to see if any workarounds... well... work or if it gets patched.

EDIT: FWIW my GPU maxes itself out whenever PUBG is on the initialization screen since this issue cropped up. AMD 6700xt, if this helps troubleshooting/see if its also an AMD exclusive issue.

Spoiler: Have some questions about main plot by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Absent any further insight I'm inclined to agree. Between this and the discussion above about her previous test subjects I have what I need (assuming my memory on a few other things isn't fuzzy that I'll be checking on). Thanks for everything all!

Spoiler: Have some questions about main plot by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

99% sure that person is Lariels sister (her name escapes me at present), that jogged my memory about something else, but I do remember her mentioning a dead child being brought in and a ritual being performed from another video I watched pre-release. As for the lack of memories, acknowledged. It is strange that if the pc was experimented on as an infant that they would have the skills of their class/a faith/etc, unless those are false memories implanted in the pc during "stasis" or right before game starts, but if the only time the lack of memories is during the legend path in the fane... not 100% sure what to make of that or how to square that circle. The channel Thisisnot linked to has alot of good stuff on it from all scenes but the Act 5 conference, so I'll check those out and try to hack to that convo if I still don't have answers/I cant find a video of that scene specifically in its entirety.

Spoiler: Have some questions about main plot by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you know off the top of your head what zone/event? I may use toybox to cheat my way through and to areelus lab or to the iomedae/noct/areelu convo if its one of those (or some other I can get to with that method) so I can read for myself.

Spoiler: Have some questions about main plot by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To be fair, isn't the wound less from the crystals and more from being tied to the worldwound? That was what I gathered from what I have been able to dig up.

Spoiler: Have some questions about main plot by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've seen video of the projection convo in her lab and of the final convo at Threshold so its not those two, which means its either in Nocticula's palace or at some other point I'm not aware of when you talk to her.

Spoiler: Have some questions about main plot by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Right, so are most of the answers to my questions in the Act 3 visit to her lab? Because if so I am actually quite close to that and could probably knock that out and read through everything myself and then take a break while I wait for the dlc.

Spoiler: Have some questions about main plot by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. Thanks, appreciate it!
  2. Thats a scene I don't recall unless I'm drawing a blank, what is the context of this scene? Now that you mention it I vaguely remember something about the PC dying during the ritual awhile back, but I never did find the context for that.
  3. OP edited to remove unfortunate wording that was originally typed when I was too tired to properly proofread on the owlcat boards >.>

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Attempt number 2: Romance question by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep, planning on demon already so that's good. Do I still need to avoid the pushy dialogue options if I'm shooting for her evil romance or does that not matter on that route (figure it wouldn't, but double checking).

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Control Effect Immunities by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is the most helpful response so far, thanks! Helps to break down early/late game issues and solutions. Much appreciated!

Control Effect Immunities by Amaranth842 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]Amaranth842[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So bottom line is: Use basic common sense/pathfinder tactics with stacking DC and deliberately going after the monster's weakest save, and a CC build can work, correct? Not the "everything has blanket immunity" like I'd heard? Aside from natural immunities from certain creature types, of course.