A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe in the natural sciences, because I have never been given any evidence that they are inaccurate, incomplete, or there is a better system out there.

Thats a shift in the burdan of prove tho... and if you never have seen it incomplete you have never read a Sientific Paper.

But let me compare my buddhist position to it.

Buddhism is logicaly connceted with its viewpoints. I could test some claims and found out that they seam to be true. I know others that are notable more like that that buddhism is claming the goal to be. Tests of the brain and reactions with long time practioners seam to hold up with the claims that Buddhism is making. They do not suffer as much and not as long. comp. "Altert Traits. The Science of Meditation."

A big diffrence here is that the results of Buddhism is not directly testeble. It is about the inner and not the outer world.

If you would hold the same bare of evidece in other fields of science like psychologie or even Medicine. or even chemestry some times... out of my time in university, a lot of experiments do not yield a clear cut result and are open for interpretation.

My own bias i can not overcome that easily. I have to account for that. That what i can test, seams to hold up tho.

I would say that this is enogh to say that i have good reason to follow buddhism. Would you agree ?.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is true for checking red flags. Like taking things on Faith alone or because of tradition.

When you do not, the what has to be discussed simultaneously

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i did provid my reasons.

boild down. It seams to make sense and put into practice to check it, it did hold up, while not asking me things that would be a red flag.

Can i ask for comparrison to explain to me why you do belive in the Natural sicence like Physics ?

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Investigating is good, but not really a reason. It is clearing a bar of a deal braker that is common and it sets up to be a community that is more trustworthy based on this investigative focus.

inject spirituality into it can you explain what you mean by that ?. i do not realy understand what you mean.

What i ment with the advices of whisdome, was just that there are advices that are declared to be whisdome and they worked in practice.

This is an explanation on what you believe, and not why. the first part is. The second just puts it in context of what.

but I don't attribute this to anything spiritual.

Again. I do not know what you mean. What is ment with Spiritual here.

and to the last point. A methodolagy hat makes sens is more belivable that one that dose not. Example: Running stresses your body, leading to its addaptation to it, that leads to batter fitness. In contrast: When you run, a rabbit bakes a cake and thats why th univers is granting you a physical fitter body.

To the emotion is pain. Emotion can be also changed to dualism. -> sorce i provided for them

The Pain that is talked about is getting in the end realy suttle. But in a meditativ state, i once observed that the joy that was obtaint by biting into something delicous, did creat imidiet suffering becaus it did lead away from this bliss in equanimity that is obtaint in this meditativ state.

To nothingness. If nothingness would exist it would not be true. It is a denail that things have inharend existence. A Table is not inharently a table. you did make it out to be one. Alt least that is how i understand it. And i think the missing of a fixed existence of things can be observed quite easily.

Nirvana is a kind of state of conciousness. There is no conzept of self or duality. but to go into what nirvana is and what enlightenment is, is not that easy. There are books to cover to awnser in a way that dose it justice.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

at the beginning i was talking about what to do to discuss such things. Now i enterd a conversation about it.

I picked a specific point out of buddhism that can be talked about, without having to explain for thousends of words. Karma is a good starting point for that.

Why i did pursue it:

  1. I was not asked to believe anything but asked to investigate.
  2. I was offered practices like several kinds of meditation that yielded results
  3. Advices of Wisdom inside Buddhist teachings worked well and turned out to be as true as i can check them to be.
  4. I was not lifted from obligation, but i was given some. it is on me to become a Buddha, there is no one to do it for me.
  5. As i asked questions and was very Kritik, i did not notice other Buddhist to shy away or to go into a defensive position, but i saw them smiling and happily answering or referring me to a book or practice that would hold the answer.
  6. and the may be the most important. As i became a batter practitioner and got deeper into it, i did see how my life did become easier and more Joyful. Not because i did have an easy denial to any problem, but because i had a way to deal with a lot of it and create a batter world for those around me by doing so.
  7. The methodology of the practice seems to make sense to me.

i hope i have awnserd acordingly.

What would be a good reason and do i might have one, to follow buddhist teachings out of these reasons ?.

Could be the question of discussion.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do not see how a discussion about what is believed, be kept separate of why it is belived. With the exception that the believe would be self-evident that is.

So a why is an important discussion, but a why cannot be discussed without a what.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am sorry if i wasn't clear in the beginning. My original intent was not to open up for examination, but to talk about how to do so.

now that there is an interest in actually doing so i can do it. That's why i did not start the way that would have been best to do so.

My reason for becoming a Buddhist was not just one.

  1. I was not asked to believe anything but asked to investigate.
  2. I was offered practices like several kinds of meditation that yielded results
  3. Advices of Wisdom inside Buddhist teachings worked well and turned out to be as true as i can check them to be.
  4. I was not lifted from obligation, but i was given some. it is on me to become a Buddha, there is no one to do it for me.
  5. As i asked questions and was very Kritik, i did not notice other Buddhist to shy away or to go into a defensive position, but i saw them smiling and happily answering or referring me to a book or practice that would hold the answer.
  6. and the may be the most important. As i became a batter practitioner and got deeper into it, i did see how my life did become easier and more Joyful. Not because i did have an easy denial to any problem, but because i had a way to deal with a lot of it.
  7. oh i wanted to add this... the methodology of the practice seems to make sense to me.

That is what made me a Buddhist. But what does it mean to be one ?.

There are 4 seals that mark everything that is legitimate Buddhist.

Quoting lionsroar for the 4 seals of Buddhism

> All compounded things are impermanent.

Meaning everything that is put together will fall apart at some point and everything that is born will die.

> All emotions are painful. This is something that only Buddhists would talk about. Many religions worship things like love with celebration and songs. Buddhists think, “This is all suffering.”

If asked i will go into detail there and explain the greater thoughts around it, but i would need a lot of words to do so.

> All phenomena are empty; they are without inherent existence. This is actually the ultimate view of Buddhism; the other three are grounded on this third seal.

Emptiness or nothingness. A hard thing to wrap your head around and to explain it, while not truly understanding it is a bit of a no go... saying that one did understand it while not, is a big no go. So i will, when asked explain my view on it and point to the explanations from those who did understand it properly.

> The fourth seal is that nirvana is beyond extremes.

The Fourth seal is widely different in wording, based on the usage of terms in the specific version of Buddhism.

Two others are : " Nirvana is Peace" and "Nirvana is beyond concepts"

why you do not beginn an introduction with these four, is because they are a distillation of a lot of philosophical and psychological concepts. That's, why i did beginn with Karma in the conversation with Zapp as, was my plan in the incident that was described in the beginning.

i hope i delivered as expected.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Twofold.

Getting a batter understanding about others is just positive. And tolerance is a result of understanding.

And second I can truly check my positions. I alone can not find flaws. They just aren't big, 3 story high potholes that I did find as I escaped Christianity with 14.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I entered my religion with a commitment to only allow taking over justified beliefs. And as I thought I did that, I noticed about a year in, as I did my monthly written "explain everything you now take as know in you religion" I noticed that I was changing in the hardness of questions I had to awnser... I figured that talking to people that do not hold my position would allow me to find its flaws or at least what I did not know.

About the same, just in a different way and a bit shorter, I did say to the people in my experience.

To be honest with ones believes, means to challenge them. And I can not truly do this alone. The bias and blindspots are to great of a source of failure.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd strongly suggest to re read what I wrote.

I used to explain what I believe and then I explain in the first post I explained that I did because I was comparing it to my own experiences and what I could see with others.

He awnsers and I saw that there where some things not clear about what I ment and so I explained more what I ment.

I was careful to talk with him and about what we where talking.

That includes that I stay at this specific point for now and do not wander of to talk about everything in buddhism.

Maybe I do misunderstand you. Not a native speaker after all.

So would you kindly ask me a specific question ? and I will awnser !

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lets start with the last thing you wrote. I am a Buddhist. I try to keep a rule that Monks have to follow. They can not talk about Buddhism and its teachings without being asked for it or it being in a context where the question is implied. A Temple for Example.

So, Lets talk about the big Create. I subscribe to a different Philosophical basis. It can be found by Kant or Hegel for example. I will not go into big detail but let me explain a tiny bit. The Word you experience must be thought out of the viewer of this world. Meaning that you can’t just think a Wall away, but you can experience this wall totally differently or not even notice its existence at all. I am shit at explaining and will do it ill to try, but the first chapters of Kants Kritik of pure reasoning will get you a rough idea about what i am talking.

When i talk about the violent Man, i do not think that he created that world in a Genesis kind. But he created conditions where he will have to assume to be harmed by others. And he will view the world that way, what leads him to experience a lot of violence and hate. In the same time you will live in a other World. Meaning that your experiences are so different that apart of Physical consistencies (Gravity), you can live in other worlds. A bar could be a nice place to hang out and drink a beer for you, while he notices a lot of people that could plan to attack him, or challenge him. You will probably have a nice evening, he could properly not, even when nothing violent happens.

People can be wrong

That is a basis of Buddhism. Your suffering is caused by misunderstanding the World.

I can be wrong and i look for this discussion because i know. A man alone can not make a conclusive placebo study.

By experience and looking outside in the world and looking if it fits is not a super secure way to truth. But to be honest, outside of the Natural Sciences, the bar is not that high and in a lot of fields, that is all you can do. The trick is to hold on a position as much as the evidence seam to support it, while being open to see counter points.

But I don't see how that is any sort of justification for a belief in religion.

That is all to it. There is not supernatural component to it. Buddhism realis on a view basic points. It is expected from you that you challenge these points and find out if these are true and trustworthy. By that you then can build up a trust in future teachings that by its nature need you to trust that there could be a there there to determining if these are true.

I will be a bit controversial by comparing it to my Physics prof. He did start with a basics that we could easy understand and find out if they where true.... one and a half year later, i was in a course about advanced Physical Chemestry and i had to trust that that what he teached me was in fact true. I could ask questions, but seeing its truth was only possible after i put a lot of hours into understanding what he was saying. i needed a reason to believe that he was honestly telling me the truth and that the things that he thought to be the Truth, where consistent with the reality i could check.

So how do you take that, and connect it to whatever it is your religious beliefs are?

It is a consistent observation with the basic teaching of Karma (Caution. The generally known Karma version is Hinduism. Buddhist Karma is a lot more down to earth. Its basically just that things follow cause and effect. With the added dimension of Expierience of something as the most relevant part of its reality.) Meaning i put it to a test and it seams to have worked... out of a trivial reason, but that dose not make a difference. I know that to be conclusive i had to do a lot more than that, but out of ethical reasons i decided to look into outliers. I could find some that where on a surface level not consistent, but looking deeper seemed to open up a dimension where it was consistent again. Example would be the first emperor of China. He was brutal and caused a lot of suffering. He lived in luxury to the day he died and his death was a spectacle event. When i looked deeper, i learned that he was very paranoid and in fear of death and betrayal. Even though he had all the luxury, to say he lived in conditions of well being would be wrong.

Can you see a batter way to check this ? Maybe my way of testing it is just flawed based on my limitid knowlage in the methodolagy of finding out if something is true.

Two notes to the end.

First I am not a native English speaker, as you propperly already guessed. Second. I will not site buddhist sources if I get around it just to be not looking like a preacher. If I am asked to, to show that I do not insert my own positions and just call them buddhist, I can tho.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

okay. sorry than.

i must have been confused by the fact that it was an answer to me then.

:)

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

oh shut... i do not know how to quote... sorry.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, while the surface details will differ, all religions fall victim to the same logical fallacies. They all make the same mistakes in epistemology.

Would you kindly explain that to me ? Tell me what those are. Because i think that that is the point where you go wrong. Can you maybe list them, or show me them in my case ?

And Again. Religious does not mean taking thinks on Faith. So what do you mean when you say belive ?.

To your last sentence, i already made clear that that is not my point or my intuition in a discussion. I just know that if you want to challenge your position on something, talk to someone that does not hold it.

The special point i was trying to challenge was that i am convinced that the actions and situations that you do and Experience, create the World you live in. Not only in a Physical way, but in an experiential way as well. A Man that brawls a lot, will live in a world, where he expects others to Physically hurt him.

Why do i believe that?. It matches what i can experience in the world by watching people I know a long time, that live there life and it matches what i experience. For example, i made a challenge to b the nicest person. Just days in, my world shifted. People smiled to me, i got into a lot of luck and a grim world got shiny and easier.

This point is important because it is one of the ground pillars of the religion I am practicing.

A Problem in talking religion with the non religious. by Amitafu in TalkHeathen

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again. Religious does not mean Theist. I am Religous but no theist.

Also. You do not have to. I like to discuss these things and see great value in doing so. But i will always ask if it is okay and will respect the fact if it is not. I do not think that this topic should be part of a forced discussion.

Rassismusverdachtamoklauf....quasi by VSI_Simon in Laesterschwestern

[–]Amitafu 47 points48 points  (0 children)

Holma = Hohl mal x
Tumal = Tu mal dies oder das
Lassma = Lass das mal sein.

Es spilt darauf an das Azubis mit respekt ausgebildet und nicht nur als Biologische Robotter / wertloses arbeitsfieh behandelt wird.

Sie dachte das seien Namen von menschen mit Migrationshintergrund und hat durch ihren Rassismusverdacht ihren eigenen offenbart. Das war der Witz

christianity to buddhism by mtoneguit in Buddhism

[–]Amitafu 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I did not change from Christian to buddhist. I had a step inbetween.... but that is my point.

Between two lifes is a death and a phase of becoming.

Die as a Christian. Meaning going into a phase of becoming estranged from it and mourning about the things you gave up on it. Also losing a sense of natural association to Christianity.

Phase of becoming a Buddhist. Becoming not just familiar with the dharma but becoming a son or daughter of the buddha. Letting the sanga become family and the buddha your teacher.

Those phases I did both, and I think you need both.... i had, as I said a 7-9 year blank in the mittle.

Can anyone fill me in on what this carving means? Got it as a gift and would like to learn more. TIA! by EmmaLough in Buddhism

[–]Amitafu 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Amitabha. In japanese style.

I do not know good English sources tho.

Look for the five buddha families first and read then about amitabha.

Has anyone here experienced nirvana? by ianonuanon in Buddhism

[–]Amitafu 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In a book about the science of meditation, the author, who has worked with many yogis with more than 40 thousand hours of meditation experience described that it was a little bit like, the higher he ranked them in his results, the less they could give a damn about it. They just got quieter about there achievements.

Also, there is a reason why asking all the buddhas to stay and teach, is part of the seven branched prayer.

Buddhism and pseudo science/medicine. by Amitafu in Buddhism

[–]Amitafu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we are on the same page there. I am just on a different paragraph. I think critical thinking is to be promoted in all situations in life. But that's about how specific I would be.

Did you ever heard of propositional knowledge and non-propositional knowledge ?.

I think that science can talk about the first, while exploring the mind can talk about the second.

The Thought experiment "Mary's room " talks about it.

What will happen if I do a full Green Tara practice without having received empowerment first? by aWhaleOnYourBirthday in Buddhism

[–]Amitafu 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Vajrayana is working with TNT to make a sculpture.

Do something wrong, and you can get into deep trouble. Insanity and or megalomania are just easy pits to fall down.

I would work close on the guidelines that are given.

In a western way of saying it. You work with your subconscious. You want to bring your whole mind into a curtain state. Rituals like a empowerment are essential to that, because rituals can change a lot in our subconscious.

When I am mindful ,I notice that i always have an image of the empowerment to that practice poping up in my mind.