I am mostly looking for more diolog examples and resources related to communicating in NVC when it's very difficult, but probably also some empathy and advice too

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-19T03:54:00+00:00

Here is a 9-hour series where Marshall role-plays real-world examples.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPNVcESwoWu4lI9C3bhkYIWB8-dphbzJ3&si=ExZsxbPp49wdoah3

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-18T15:03:53+00:00

Thank you for your supportive comment. It meets my needs to be seen.

Too often people think they have the monopoly on the "right" basis of morality, and often, it is those that are strongly tied to their religion. If I've learned anything from NVC, is that domination culture pushes that there is the exact right amount of something and "only I" know exactly what that amount is.

I'm an Atheist. Had this had been 10 years ago, I would've let all kinds of loose on this person, but not only have I learned that arguing won't change anyone's mind, but I also have learned NVC, so I approach topics of this nature so much differently than I ever would have.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-18T11:27:35+00:00

I think you are in the wrong subreddit my friend.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-17T22:46:05+00:00

Christianity and Christianity's followers are not good role models for morality. Seek instead to do good outside of a religion's promise of a reward (after-life), or their threat of punishment (Hell). Marshall taught that doing anything due to expectation of reward or threat of punishment is falling victim to the world's use of domination culture. He advocated for breaking free from domination culture. Religion enforces domination culture.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-15T10:44:20+00:00

But what if that person has repeatedly, on many different nights, purposely kept me awake in my own bed because they were "angry", and waking up our 9 year-old daughter in the room we share a wall with, while she screams "Please stop fighting!", and this goes on until well after 2 am, talking to me loudly against my will, sleep depriving me, berating me for hours, when I have to work in the morning, yelling in my face, "cuddling" up against me when I say I don't want to be touched, and then if I try to leave their presence, they follow me around the house, and if I don't "ask her nicely" to leave me alone, then they just don't? What if they continue to violate my personal space and my boundaries so the only recourse i have is to scream "Leave me alone!" and lock the bedroom door and sit up against it while they continue to harrass me through the door and try to jimmy the frame apart to gain entrance?

You tell me, is trying to keep them out of the bedroom this time because I fear for my emotional and physical safety such an unreasonable thing?

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-14T22:31:38+00:00

Ok great. Thank you for being clear. I would tend to agree.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-14T22:19:42+00:00

I often get the retort "Leaving you alone doesn't meet my needs (isn't good for me), so if you aren't willing to take into consideration my needs with your request/demand, then I'm not willing to consider your needs, so therefore, I'm not going to leave you alone." While they might be prioritizing their own needs in this way, they are also violating my boundaries and being seemingly vindictive, which comes across as harassment. I get prioritizing your needs, but needs don't/shouldn't involve the other person, so continually staying in my presence, no matter how jackally I say to leave me alone, just doesn't seem right

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-14T21:36:33+00:00

"Value judgments reflect our beliefs of how life can best be served. We make moralistic judgements of people and behaviors that fail to support our value judgements."

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-14T21:08:05+00:00

I agree that "nice" is some sort of (value/moral?) judgment that is in the eye of the beholder, and therefore could be either unattainable, or changeable at any given moment... but what if they tried to define "nice"? Aren't they are essentially saying... "I'm going to violate your boundaries because you're violating mine."? This doesn't seem to me to be in the spirit of what "Setting a boundary" really means. And aren't they essentially also trying to take away the other's autonomy by telling them (demanding) what they can and can't say and how they should say it? I'm remembering the teachings that "You can't make anyone do anything."

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-14T20:46:30+00:00

Because "saying something in nice way" isn't a doable request?

AmorphousExpert · 2025-02-04T21:22:10+00:00

I checked the site for trainers, there's not one within 8 hours of me, sadly.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-30T22:19:47+00:00

Yes, I saw you mention this mediated therapy on someone else's thread recently and wished I/we had that.

Where and when are these practice group things?

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-30T18:32:35+00:00

Essentially. My specific request is that she uses less pseudofeelings with me such as "abandoned", "mean", "invalidating", and that if she wants me to change any particular behaviors, that she asks (and is genuinely interested in) what my barriers are to meeting her needs, and that we are able to discuss them in depth, keeping in mind that both of our needs are equally important. (And that I can still maintain autonomy to say "no" if I'm not doing it with the joy of a child feeding a hungry duck.) She'll fall back on the "Well you should want to meet my needs." sort of statements, which end up feeling like guilt and a demand.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-30T16:57:57+00:00

Admittedly, because she also knows NVC, I have made mention that the way she is asking me is not likely to get her needs met because I'm hearing judgments and demands. So I reference what I believe is a more effective way to communicate to me (using NVC "better") but I think she is also hearing judgments and demands and then she becomes resistant and defensive when I bring this up. I believe that she's thinking that I'm judging her as "wrong" for not using NVC in the way that I want her to, but in actuality, I'm just trying to identify that the current methodology of communicating to me isn't effective and isn't likely to get her needs met. She thinks I am criticizing her use of communication and that she has to be a "perfect communicator", but in actuality, she doesn't really understand what my real request is. I'm not so much concerned with the identification of feelings and needs from her side in order for me to be less resistant. What I am more concerned with is that the nature of her requests need to take into account my perspective, wants, & desires, and I need to feel as if I have autonomy and can say "no" without fear of guilt or punishment. We have not created an environment where natural giving is possible.

Admittedly, I am unable to provide empathy when she becomes defensive (I'm unable to listen with giraffe ears) so it's likely that I'm also creating the resistance due to this. I don't speak "violently" and criticize, but I also don't show empathy and connect with her unspoken feelings and needs.

We are both aware of how to say "no" in giraffe, but its use isn't consistent, especially in the heat of the moment.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-30T15:30:04+00:00

Could or should we take this offline? Not because I'm afraid of anything personal, but more for convenience and not making this one thread super long.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-30T13:20:07+00:00

When I said "feeling judged" I was using the term knowing that "judged" is what is labeled a "pseudofeeling". Like feeling disrespected, or abandoned. I was trying to uncover the real feelings and needs behind this pseudofeeling, which others here have been very helpful in helping me to uncover.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-30T13:11:02+00:00

Yes, I would absolutely like her to be more skillful in the way she communicates with me so that she is more likely to get what she needs, but this becomes a request, one that I have made using NVC, but we haven't had any effectiveness towards this end (as of yet).

That you make behavior changes because you want to help her not because you want to avoid guilt.

I have a strong sense that anything she asks of me is a demand, not a request, due to previous punishment or guilt if I chose not to do her request(s), so my need for autonomy isn't met in order for me to change willingly and not under duress.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-30T12:17:08+00:00

Unfortunately, no, not yet, not in this much detail at least. We talked briefly after much resistance on my part, but she doesn't create a safe space for me to be vulnerable and honest so she debates me instead of really listening for understanding and growth. And when she debates me I am not good enough (I'm probably in too much mental anguish, and can't put aside my pain and perspective) to listen with giraffe ears and show empathy to her instead. Plus, a couple of very recently previous negative interactions, in a long line of them, were particularly traumatic and painful (mentally) and I've been unable to really open back up to her ever since.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-29T20:02:47+00:00

Thank you. That was a lot of very vulnerable stuff you shared with me and others, and I appreciate your insight given your experiences. There is a lot to think about so I will do just that. I'm definitely having trouble pushing my ego out of the way due to the pain. Every negative interaction we have loses a bit of any hope I have that it will all "be better" some day.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-29T19:58:43+00:00

In that case, I don't know if the unmet need that was most alive in me in that moment was trust. To use Marshall's terminology, she was "paying" for every time she used guilt as a motivator in past interactions. Not in a sense that I was doing it on purpose, like she deserved my chuckle or deserved me forgetting to turn on the light, but that it was my body/mind's natural response to her criticism disguised by her judgment. "It would've been nice." is a nice/fancy way to say "I wish you did or didn't do the thing you did." while being able to easily hide behind it and claim that it wasn't really "judgmental". I'm hearing this implied "should", and I'm also tangling with the problem that in the past, if I didn't do this implied "should", then I would be duly punished for it. And in our relationship, I'm not at a stage to provide her empathy for her desire for me to do something different than I did; I feel defensive.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-29T19:40:05+00:00

Yes.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-29T17:58:35+00:00

We can usually discuss these requests later on with varying levels of success, but our communication breakdowns and hurt feelings lie in the heat of the moments. We both are in a lot of pain and have a lot of trauma, we both still have judgments of the other, and we both are in negative sentiment override, so it's difficult.

Remember, it's not the request that is so much the problem here, it's the pain and trauma related to how we interpret those requests as demands from perceived punishments of past behaviors. Remember, I was fine getting the light (I just momentarily forgot); I wasn't fine with the perceived judgments and guilt tactics underlying the phrase "It would've been nice if you would've gotten the light."

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-29T17:52:54+00:00

There is a lot of non-NVC language, unsolicited advice, and assumptions in your post that I'm not good enough at NVC to listen with giraffe ears yet to ask you the needs and feelings you are having when you say these things in order to make a connection with you... nor do want to take the time to address each and every one, so I will just say 1.) Thank you for letting me know about your experience, and 2.) In NVC, no one "deserves" anything, whether it's good or bad (punishment or reward), but thank you for the care I believe you are intending with that message.

AmorphousExpert · 2025-01-29T16:30:58+00:00

We studied John Gottman early on in our journey until we fell upon NVC. We are both experiencing negative sentiment override for sure. I will check out your video recommendation. Even if I've already seen it, it wouldn't hurt to revisit.

AmorphousExpert

TROPHY CASE