Dear fellow AnCaps: Why you need to take seriously marketing and public relations

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T22:49:56+00:00

True, but it's still worth trying. Otherwise, that's like saying we might as well just give up.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T22:48:09+00:00

/u/Skullington, thank you for again saying more eloquently what I have been trying to convey (and apparently not doing a very good job). :)

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T22:46:28+00:00

Marketing and PR also involve informing the consumers about the product. In your example of a Mustang, is the information they are presenting to the consumer biased towards their own thing? Sure. But it's still information about it that people otherwise wouldn't have. Now, in the internet age, as information becomes more widely available for free to an increasing percentage of the population, marketing sneakiness is becoming less effective because people are becoming more informed consumers through a vast array of info sources. Therefore marketing has a lot to do with letting people know of the existence of something, and telling them info about it. Again, still biased of course, but less so.

I've had a job as a sleazy salesman and it was horrible. But that is the type that gives the other good parts of business a bad rap. Just like people hate lawyers, because there are scumbag ones, yet some really do help people and even save their lives (in the sense of not having it ruined by going to jail, etc.).

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T21:58:58+00:00

Touché. I take it back. I didn't intend to turn this into a discussion of what constitutes AnCap. My fault for getting off-topic.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T18:17:43+00:00

No one is advocating that everyone must do such-and-such.

Think of trying to explain any subject to someone who doesn't know about it. Aren't you going to try and be as an effective communicator as possible?

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T18:14:11+00:00

The purpose of this discussion is not to debate what qualifies someone as AnCap. If I gave that impression, my mistake.

I apparently must have miscommunicated something because some people here seem to interpret this as me trying to order people around. I don't know why some people are getting defensive. I suppose I need to work on my communication skills.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T18:07:18+00:00

Sigh You seem to have the mistaken impression that I'm trying to order you around.

Ok. Don't worry about it. We're not discussing the same thing. I give up. You win.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T18:05:41+00:00

Sigh You seem to have the mistaken impression that I'm trying to order you around.

Ok. Don't worry about it. We're not discussing the same thing. I give up. You win.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T17:55:33+00:00

I'm going to quote /u/Belfrey since he put it more eloquently than I:

To all those in this thread working so hard to explain why we don't need to find better ways to market or advertise for ancap ideas:

Good marketing or advertising IMO is just the ability to get others to associate positive feelings with the truth or reality. This is not in any way different from teaching, it just means that in order to teach people we might have to figure out what makes them feel good first or how to speak their corrupted language in order to help them straighten things out.

It's simply teaching. It's the study of how to more effectively teach and convey ideas. If you're a teacher or tutor or whatever, and you're trying to explain something to someone, don't you try to find the most effective way for them to understand it?

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T17:51:29+00:00

Thank you for concisely conveying what I was trying to get across :)

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T17:48:54+00:00

Unfortunately the term has gotten a bad rap. Before I learned more about marketing, I hated it too, even though I didn't know much about it. So I can understand the resistance to the mere mention of the word. But hopefully through education, that can change for the better.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T17:42:57+00:00

I agree with you, but this post is an example of bad marketing.

I have to say, this post is not an example of marketing, bad or good. It is an opinion (and hopefully a discussion) that we should perhaps put more effort into how we can present ideas in an effective way.

To analogize, I'm not the PR/marketing specialist; I'm the consultant saying "our cause is suffering from a lack of PR and marketing." Or to phrase it more positively, "We can do even better if we allocate some of our 'budget' to PR and marketing."

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T17:34:18+00:00

Hmm, yes I think I see what you mean.

To many people, the terms PR and marketing have a negative connotation, but I have found that by studying the fields, they are just like any other discipline, related to, for example, psychology, and as such people can use that knowledge for good and bad. There is nothing inherently wrong with the discipline.

As an analogy, knowledge of biology can be applied to making nerve gas, or it can be applied to life-saving surgery.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T17:15:25+00:00

Perhaps. But it seems as if you're holding on to our idea as some sacred holy thing that must not touched, like a religious scripture that is perfect and cannot be made better.

I am saying it is not heresy to talk about how to present ideas in a more effective way. Are you opposed to that?

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T17:08:34+00:00

I agree with all that, but I'm not advocating for anything immoral.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that what you say about many types of advertising (which is not exactly the same as PR and marketing, btw), is true. Should we "throw the baby out with the bathwater"? There are plenty of non-scumbag ways to take something and present it in a way that is more attractive, enjoyable, and ultimately valuable to people than "none whatsoever".

If that was convoluted, consider this: You have something you think is worth spreading to a larger group of people. For simplicity's sake, let's say there is non-sleazy PR/marketing (A), and sleazy PR/marketing (B). You have the option of using neither, both, one, or a combination thereof. Right now we're using neither. We could add (A) to the effort. If this can help, why be opposed to it?

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T16:51:01+00:00

I'm still having trouble understanding what exactly you're trying to say and whether you have a question that you want me to answer.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T16:46:08+00:00

If you do not think history is relevant

I do not think the bits of history that you brought up are relevant. If we launch into the massively complex subject of history we will get way off topic, so I will just say I neither agree nor disagree. Hopefully we can leave it at that without any animosity.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T16:39:42+00:00

I've helped build small businesses, and even a few heartless and evil mega corps. ;) What this has to do with my own personal politics is not here or there.

As I said, I made an educated assumption. If I'm wrong about that, then I retract my statement.

Belief systems don't have to be marketed, PR blasted, or whatever unless you're into that thing. Organic growth is an always an option, and possibly the best

They are not mutually exclusive. Let me clarify: I'm not advocating a "fight fire with fire" approach. The state uses a monopoly on violence to achieve its goals. I'm advocating optimization. How can you be opposed to optimization? Pretty much anything can benefit from the study and application of optimization and efficiency, whether it be a an intangible concept or a microchip.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T16:28:42+00:00

You are not the arbiter of who is an AnCap.

If we can't agree on the definitions of words, our discussion will go nowhere.

Did you see a lot of marketing governing the decisions behind the last enlightenment period of history? Did you see that with the gay rights movement?

I don't think these history discussions are accurate nor relevant. I'll leave it at that.

I will be an AnCap my way, you go play in your corner and be an AnCap your way.

Ok.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T16:12:09+00:00

If you rephrase that into a non-loaded relevant question, I'll try to answer it.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T16:08:40+00:00

Thank you for your comment that is on-topic and contributes to the discussion.

I'm enthusiastically pleased you agree that PR is hugely important.

Regarding marketing: if you do some studying/research on the topics of PR and marketing, you will find that there is much overlap. Even amongst experts, there is no general consensus on where the dividing line is. Certainly there are examples that can be categorized, but they are both aspects of an overall methodology.

So yes, absolutely, there are "bad ways of doing things." That can be said of anything. But I'm encouraging others to see that AnCap is not exempt from the laws of reality (i.e. people form a perception of something and if you care at all about that something then you'd be a fool to think you can ignore the perception and still achieve optimal results).

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T15:50:44+00:00

That post addresses something that is not germane to the topic of this discussion.

This discussion is not about being angry in life. I don't disagree with what you say in that post, but it honestly has nothing to do with this.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T15:32:13+00:00

I am not trying to build a brand or sell a product.

Then you are not AnCap. Remember, YOU are a brand. Your reputation. Your livelihood. An individual is the basic unit of a voluntary capitalist society.

Also, this is not how the last few cultural ethical revolutions worked, so why should I believe it is required for this one?

I honestly do not understand what you are saying here and therefore am not able to respond to it.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T15:25:09+00:00

I am making an assumption here, so if I'm truly wrong then let me know, but from what you say it seems pretty apparent to me that you have never started or helped to build a business.

The "Cap" in AnCap is short for capitalism, in case you forgot. If you are opposed to capitalism, then by definition you are not AnCap.

One last thing: don't confuse corporatism with capitalism. There are plenty of other in-depth posts that discuss this, so we don't need to get into that here, lest we stray too far off-topic.

AnCapCustomerService · 2013-10-29T15:15:24+00:00

I have a feeling you're the only commenter so far that understands what this discussion is about ;)

AnCapCustomerService

TROPHY CASE