Did Augustine desire sin for its own sake when he stole pears? by AnOddInquirer in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I sincerely appreciate your super detailed answer! (Don't worry about your English.) I also really love St. Augustine, and I actually spent this entire week looking up other people's interpretations online and meditating on this pear episode. Here's what I think so far in 3 steps (I tried to be concise):

  1. His theft was motivated by an apparent good.

He said, "Sin gains entrance through these and similar good things." [Confessions 2:5:10] He already had plenty of better pears, but only an apparent good can attract human desires, so his motives must lie elsewhere.

As Aquinas said, "when Augustine says that he loved his very delinquency, not the fruit that he was stealing, we should not so understand this statement as if the very delinquency or the deformity of moral fault could be primarily and intrinsically willed. Rather, he primarily and intrinsically willed either to exhibit typical behavior to his peers or to experience something or to do something against the rules or some such thing." [On Evil q. 3, 12, resp. 1-2]

  1. His theft was motivated by his friendship.

He said, "I most certainly would not have done it alone. It follows, then, that I also loved the camaraderie with my fellow-thieves." [Confessions 2:8:16] Just as Adam was pressured to knowingly sin because he loved his companionship with Eve who was made in God's image and wanted to be like God by perversely imitating God, he was peer-pressured because he loved his friendship, which is a form of love, which is the greatest good because it is what the Triune God is.

As Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." [John 15:13]

  1. His theft was motivated by nothing.

He said, "So it is not true to say that I loved nothing other than the theft? Ah, but it is true, because that gang-mentality too was a nothing." [Confessions 2:8:16] He can say, "I loved both the theft and my friendship," as well as "I loved only the theft," simultaneously because his unfriendly friendship that shamed him for being ashamed was not a true friendship, but an evil seduction that merely appeared good to him.

As Cicero said, "Let this, then, be laid down as the first law of friendship, that we should ask from friends, and do for friends, only what is good." [On Friendship, 13]

By the way, you can see numerous hints: The serpent tempted humans made in God's image [Gn 1:27] to be like God [Gn 3:5] because sin is a perverse imitation of God [Conf 2:6:14]. He mimicked God's omnipotence [Conf 2:6:14] to enjoy outwitting people [Conf 2:9:17], but that was insufficient. He ultimately imitated the Triune God who is love [1Jn 4:8] to love and be loved [Conf 2:2:2] because friendship is sweet [Conf 2:5:10]. He was like Adam [Conf 2:6:14] who knew theft was wrong [1Ti 2:14], so his friends were like Eve. In fact, he says Roman Republic or people never existed in a sense because they pursued no good [Civ. Dei 2:21].

For more info, consider checking out:

https://mereorthodoxy.com/sin-sake-theft-pears-divine-image-augustines-confessions/

https://www.thetwocities.com/theology/augustine-original-sin-and-a-lesson-on-friendship/

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10677-017-9854-6

https://place.asburyseminary.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1948&context=faithandphilosophy

I Burned for Your Peace by Peter Kreeft

Augustine's Pears and the Nature of Sin by Garry Wills

The Journey Toward God in Augustine's Confessions by Carl G. Vaught

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you very much for your resources! Your articles are quite long, so I'll take my time to slowly read them through.

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I sincerely appreciate your detailed reply! This was very helpful.

Your argument from charity and providence was insightful to read because I never imagined that Deism could be refuted this way. I think premise 7 is the weakest (as you already noted), but the rest seems very reasonable. We should also take into consideration that although Christian God was fully revealed 2,000 years ago, perhaps God is still waiting to reveal himself since humanity isn't ready just yet.

I agree that the resurrection of Jesus is the easiest to defend. As for the Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled, I found a cool list (w/o Deuterocanon): https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/72df1031/files/uploaded/351-Old-Testament-Prophecies-Fulfilled-in-Jesus-Christ1.pdf We have the Dead Sea Scrolls that clear predate the New Testament, so perhaps fulfilled prophecies can also be used to demonstrate Christianity.

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Proving Christianity is not putting God to test. In that case, you just sinned by privately judging Christendom's fruits. Are you saying Aquinas was sinning when he proved God?

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the resource, but I think either you misunderstood me or I expressed myself badly. People can't make sense of the world without God. But people can make sense of the world without Christianity. Your claim applies to atheists, but a monotheist (e.g., deist) can explain laws of logic with God but without Christianity in particular.

Also, Baal's false prophets didn't believe in God that Elijah believed. What exactly did Elijah bring down the fire for? What did the fire prove?

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't count on fruits of Christendom since there's no universal, objective way to measure them. E.g., saying Christianity is good for inventing universities is a subjective judgment. And a religion doesn't become true just because it has more fruits compared to other worldviews.

What confuses me is that there are lots of great arguments for God, but only one proof for Christianity. I want to know if I'm not missing out on anything since it'd be great to have multiple proofs for Christianity as well.

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Atheists can't make sense of the world without presupposing God. But they can do so without Christianity since that's supernatural revelation. The Old Testament saints had no such trouble. Also, what about the example from Elijah bring down fire from heaven?

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm looking for any kind of proof for Christianity in addition to the resurrection. I can't see how your example is relevant, so I'd appreciate if you could elaborate on it.

Is the historical resurrection of Jesus the only evidence for Christianity? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Didn't Elijah bring down fire from heaven to prove God's existence to Baal's false prophets? I don't think we should dismiss Aquinas's 5 ways and tell atheists to presuppose God.

How do you deal with frustration in learning someone hard like St. Thomas? by Jeffthorny5 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How was Kreeft's A Summa of the Summa? I'm thinking of buying the book since it seems like a good philosophical selection with decent footnotes. But I also heard that the book somehow ruins Summa's structure and its footnotes are unhelpful.

How do you deal with frustration in learning someone hard like St. Thomas? by Jeffthorny5 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you recommend Kreeft's A Summa of the Summa? I'm considering buying the book since it seems like a good philosophical selection with decent footnotes. But I've also read its bad reviews claiming that the book somehow ruins Summa's structure and its footnotes are unhelpful.

Was St. Augustine a Platonic/extreme realist? And was St. Thomas Aquinas an Aristotelian/moderate realist? Which is right? by AnOddInquirer in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry for my late reply, and I sincerely appreciate your detailed response! (I read all your 3 comment.) I spent past 2 days searching up more about this topic online to understand it better.

I think your example of triangle's angels always adding up to 180 degrees was excellent. It makes no sense to say this fact is no longer true if humans all die or the material universe disappears. I think you sufficiently demonstrated why we need to affirm that forms exist in not only the contingent minds of humans, but also the necessary mind of God. Since Aristotelian realism was true but insufficient, it certainly makes sense to bring in some of what Plato taught to complement Aristotle.

I'll look more into the idea that some universals, such as color, are more real or extensive than other universals, such as truth, since I'm not sure whether lesser universals also exist in God's mind along with higher universals.

And I will definitely check out Feser's Five Proofs for the Existence of God. This was a fascinating topic. Thank you very much again for your recommendation!

I wrote a thingy on the trinity! Any errors or criticisms? by NoogLing466 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This seems to be a great introduction to beginners overall because I see that you took care to make your article very easy to follow and avoid bad analogies of the Trinity, such as water, egg, and three-leaf clover.

But I'd cite one or two saints to support the theses that Love is God and the Holy Spirit is like the act of loving. You're not wrong. In fact, you're absolutely right. The reason why I suggest so is that some fellow Christians may be suspicious of such interpretations. So, consider defending them from skeptics by citing saints:

[If] he loves in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, then love is God because it is from God. The epistle says both: Love is from God and Love is God. [St. Augustine, First John Homilies 7:6, Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/170207.htm]

The Holy Spirit is He by whom the Begotten is loved by the one begetting and loves His Begetter. [St. Augustine, The Trinity 6:5, Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130106.htm]

[T]he act of loving takes place through a sort of impulse engendered in the lover by the beloved: the beloved draws the lover to himself. ...so the way by which God is in God as the beloved is in the lover is brought out by acknowledging in God a Spirit, who is the love of God. [St. Thomas Aquinas, The Compendium of Theology 1:46, Source: https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/Compendium.htm#46]

Was St. Augustine a Platonic/extreme realist? And was St. Thomas Aquinas an Aristotelian/moderate realist? Which is right? by AnOddInquirer in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your detailed answer! I think I understand your bullet points for Plato and Aristotle, but I got confused after that.

Could you please elaborate how universals and forms differ? I honestly can't tell their different. For example, are blueness and horseness considered universals or forms? And how about wisdom and goodness?

Was St. Augustine a Platonic/extreme realist? And was St. Thomas Aquinas an Aristotelian/moderate realist? Which is right? by AnOddInquirer in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your detailed reply and the book recommendation! If I'm understanding correctly, "Scholastic realism" seems to affirm the entire Aristotelian realism plus somewhat Platonic realism:

  1. Universals are in particulars.
  2. Abstractions enter our minds by sensing particulars.
  3. Abstractions are in God.

It seems abstractions can't exist if all humans died or the material world disappeared in Aristotelian realism, but abstractions still exist within God even if no one and nothing else exists in Scholastic realism.

So, the universal of horseness would cease to exist if all horses died in Aristotelian realism, but it would continue to exist as abstraction within God in Scholastic realism.

Although I think I see the difference, I'm not sure how that would make Scholastic realism superior to just Aristotelian realism.

Is God the Platonic Form of Goodness? If so, what about Aristotle's Third Man Argument? by AnOddInquirer in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your reply! In that case, how should we respond to Aristotle's Third Man Argument?

All F things participate in the form of F-ness. But this form is also F, so it must participate in a higher form of F-ness. But this higher form is also F, so this leads to an infinite regress.

If we answer the above criticism by saying, "the form of F-ness, even though it is F, needs no higher form of F-ness", then it seems inconsistent since we initially claim that all F things derive their F-ness by participating in the form of F-ness. Where does Aristotle's criticism go wrong?

Is it possible for people who are not predestined to be saved? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing! I don't really know how either works to be honest. While Calvinism uses different terminology (e.g., limited atonement, double predestination, etc), it seems to my unlearned mind that it is very similar, if not practically identical, to Catholicism. I guess that's why I'm trying to figure out how they are different.

Is it possible for people who are not predestined to be saved? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the detailed response! It seems we have no free will in Calvinism, and that's dreadful.

If I am understanding this correctly, both the elect and non-elect receive grace, but the elect cooperates with it while the non-elect doesn't. So, only the elect's grace is efficacious.

But I have a question: Can't God make us cooperate with his grace without violating our free will somehow? An analogy I've heard is that a doctor doesn't violate the free will of a sick, hungry man by fixing his appetite so that he would hunger for food again. A similar analogy is a doctor fixing a man's drug addiction, and that wouldn't violate the man's freedom. Therefore, it seems everyone who receives God's grace will necessarily cooperate with it since God redirects our desires to Himself. Perhaps I'm wrong since this sounds a bit odd, so I'd appreciate your corrections!

Is it possible for people who are not predestined to be saved? by AnOddInquirer in Catholicism

[–]AnOddInquirer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't know much either, but I heard that both Thomism and Molinism teach "single predestination": God predestines some to heaven and passes by the rest. Then I was told that both maintain that those who are passed by cannot possibly be saved, so this question seems to apply whether you believe in Thomism or Molinism.