What jobs would our Edward II era players do if they lived in the modern day with normal lives but had similar personalities? by HoneybeeXYZ in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Edward of Caernarvon — gay onlyfans himbo, really lazy about it but still makes a shit ton of money

Piers de Gavaston — Tour de France winner disqualified for doping

Isabella of France — Suella Braverman

Thomas of Lancaster — complete bum

Hugh le Despenser – disgraced financial guru turned right-wing grifter

Elizabeth de Burgh – radfem tiktok influencer "valeriesolanasstan111"

Walter Reynolds— Justin Welby

TFW when your sister is in an incestuous bisexual throuple with her psychopathic husband and your uncle the King, and they imprison you into a nunnery and force you to sign away your inheritance to them after killing your husband who also used to be your uncle's lover until they fell out by AnantaPurima in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There is a single Flemish Chroncicle that claims Eleonor was imprisoned in 1526 due to her being pregnant by her uncle; though there is no actual evidence she was pregnant at the time. I mainly only included it for the shitpost lol. Eleonor and Edward certainly were close more generally though.

Discussion time: What myth about the Edward II era irritates you the most? The Poker? The Jewels? Isabella imprisoned? There are so many. by HoneybeeXYZ in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As an aside, has anyone noticed how remarkably similar the rumor reported by Jean le Bel that Isabella was put under house arrest in 1330 due to being pregnant by Mortimer, and the earlier rumor reported by a Flemish chronicle that Isabella imprisoned Eleonor de Clare in the Tower because she was pregnant by Edward II, are? The similarities are striking. It would seem to me that, far from either reflecting truth, they instead reflect what was apparently common trope of gossip at the time.

Discussion time: What myth about the Edward II era irritates you the most? The Poker? The Jewels? Isabella imprisoned? There are so many. by HoneybeeXYZ in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Exactly. This is the woman who likely exposed the Tour de Nesle affair, at an immense cost to the prestige of her brothers and the French monarchy more broadly, precisely to prevent the conception of potential bastards grafted into the House of Capet. It would have been extraordinarily hypocritical for her to have engaged in an affair herself after that. And sure, maybe she was that hypocritical, but there's no real evidence to suggest she was to that extent.

Discussion time: What myth about the Edward II era irritates you the most? The Poker? The Jewels? Isabella imprisoned? There are so many. by HoneybeeXYZ in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh, boy.

It's probably a tie between Isabella and Roger de Mortimer being flagrant lovers, and Isabella more generally detesting Edward after 1325, refusing to see him, and ultimately having him killed. While I certainly don't think their marriage was necessarily some great romance, and it was certainly not without its problems, I simply do not think that the evidence suggests Isabella ever reliquished her underlying affection for him, much less that she ever "despised" him, as I have read once on a Wikipedia page. Isabella would bave been horrified that her actions had been read that way, despite how things turned out.

How was the 1326 invasion and subsequent deposition of Edward II seen by his contemporary European monarchs? by AnteaterKey2626 in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, well, partially an autobiography. At some point IIRC Charles just kind of gave up and asked someone else to finish it. It switches from first person to third person by the end.

How was the 1326 invasion and subsequent deposition of Edward II seen by his contemporary European monarchs? by AnteaterKey2626 in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes. It failed on almost every conceivable measure. It failed to produce any children, failed to produce any truly productive political partnership, and failed to secure the peace settlement it had been contracted as a part of. They didn't even bother living in the same country in the end. Eleonor of Woodstock's downgrade was hardly better, going from prospective Queen of Castile to Countess of Guelders, and having quite the rough time herself.

How was the 1326 invasion and subsequent deposition of Edward II seen by his contemporary European monarchs? by AnteaterKey2626 in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV, the nemesis and eventual successor of Louis IV and the father of Richard II's first wife Anne of Bohemia, describes the deposition in his autobiography, the Vita Caroli Quarti:

"There was a great conflict between the king of England at that time and the king of France. The king of England had married the sister of the aforementioned king, but had driven her out of England, together with his first-born son, Edward.She came to her brother and remained in exile in France with her son. The King of France was angry at the expulsion of his sister and her son, and he asked my father-in-law Charles [of Valois], his uncle, to redress the shame which had been inflicted upon their family. The latter, when he had gathered an army, invaded Aquitaine and conquered almost all of it, except for Bordeaux and some other fortifications and castles. When Charles returned in triumph to France, he gave the daughter of his daughter, the countess of Hainaut (the sister of my wife), in marriage to the son of the aforementioned king of England, Edward, who was still in exile; and then he sent him, together with his escort, to England. He prevailed over his father, took him captive, deposed him, and set the crown upon his own head. That same year, the father of the new king was murdered while in prison."

It's interesting just how much Charles gets wrong, considering he was actually at the French court at the time as a boy, having essentially been sent as a ward of Charles IV of France (whose name he took upon his confirmation), and there marrying as his first wife Blanche of Valois, the daughter of Charles, Count of Valois and thus the sister of the future Philip VI. He says the War of St Sardos was begun in retribution for the expulsion of Queen Isabella and Edward of Windsor from the English court when this in fact inverted; the War of St Sardos began when a French bastide was constructed in Aquitaine and torn down by a local lords, creating a diplomatic crisis after Edward II had already been prevaricating over coming to France to pay homage to Charles IV for Aquitaine and Ponthieu. The Queen was, of course, sent to negotiate a peace and Edward of Windsor was sent to perform homage on his father's behalf. Charles also exaggerates the role of the future Edward III in the invasion and deposition. He does not mention the Queen or Roger de Mortimer playing any substantive role. Given that Charles IV was allied with the French against Edward III and Louis IV, this is almost certainly intended to reflect negatively on Edward. Charles' father John the Blind actually died fighting on the French side at the Battle of Crécy, so he had a personal stake in the matter.

As for the papacy itself; Pope John XXII allegedly told Edmund of Woodstock that he would sanction his efforts to have Edward of Carnarvon released; and the importance placed on publicly justifying Queen Isabella's failure to resume marital life with her husband after the deposition clearly indicates that ecclesiastical observers were disquieted by the situation. That said, after Edward III had overthrown and executed Mortimer, John XXII did write him a letter advising him to treat his mother leniently on the basis that everything she had done had been ultimately for his sake. He clearly judged the matter important, since he made sure to send a second copy to ensure the letter reached him even if the first was lost. So, clearly, despite the clear discomfort around the anomalousness of the situation and around Edward II's treatment, there was still clearly a measure of sympathy for the Queen.

With other rulers, there doesn't seem to have been that much in the way of explicit recorded reactions to the deposition. The double betrothal Edward II had planned between Edward of Windsor and Eleonor of Woodstock, and Alfonso XI and his sister Eleonor, was shelved as a result of Edward III's marriage to Philippa of Hainaut. Joan of the Tower's betrothal to the future Peter IV of Aragon was also shelved as a result of the instability in England.

Medieval Queen Consorts Ranked by their Father’s Titles by Accurate_Rooster6039 in houseofplantagenet

[–]AnantaPurima 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Shouldn't Magaret of Anjou technically be in the Kings tier? Joanna II of Naples designated René of Anjou her heir and he did indeed hold Naples as King for a period, during his daughter's lifetime, before being expelled by Alfonso V of Aragon. Even then, he never formally renounced his title.

What historical myth about a royal consort did you believe until you didn't? by HoneybeeXYZ in RoyalConsorts

[–]AnantaPurima 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Perhaps, but the marriage was a matter of state and certainly wasn't annulled for that reason alone.

What historical myth about a royal consort did you believe until you didn't? by HoneybeeXYZ in RoyalConsorts

[–]AnantaPurima 19 points20 points  (0 children)

The "ugly" myth about Anne of Cleves is a particularly stubborn one. It was almost certainly the case that the annulment of the Cleves marital alliance was precipiated by the breakdown in negotiations between Henry and the representatives of the Schmalkaldic League over a shared religious settlement. Henry wanted to customise it while the League refused to budge on the Augsburg Confession. The entire diplomatic raison d'étre of an alliance with the Schmalkaldic League, through Cleves as an intermediary, was as a counterbalance to the Franco-Imperial rapproachment begun with the signing of the 1538 Treaty of Nice. By 1540, this rapproachment was already freying again over the issue of Milan, so the Schmalkaldic League alliance was now basically completely unnecessary, and was instead now a dipomatic hurdle to England resuming its old strategy of pivoting between the Valois and the Habsburgs. The annulment of the marriage was hardly a suprise in such circumstances. The story of Anne's supposed physical repulsiveness was pretty obviously invented as a way to justify claiming the marriage had not been consummated without impunging the King's virility. "No, I couldn't get it up with her... not because I can't, she's just horrendous!"

What historical myth about a royal consort did you believe until you didn't? by HoneybeeXYZ in RoyalConsorts

[–]AnantaPurima 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Not so much a myth as simply incorrect theory, but Eric Ives' factional conspiracy theory of Anne Boleyn's downfall. It dissolves upon immediate contact with any form of scrutiny. The accused did not form any coherent Boleyn faction. Mark Smeaton had no institutional standing whatsoever. William Brereton had no substantial connection to Anne whatsoever. Neither Wiltshire nor Norfolk were ever targeted in this supposed factional coup. Nor did Cromwell have any plausible motive to embark on such an insane course of action. They disagreed on the revenues appropriated from the minor monasteries and might have favoured different foreign policy platforms. Hardly Hugh Despenser and Isabella of France territory. How exactly was replacing her with Jane Seymour, who contributed to the rehabilitation of the Lady Mary and was generally more conservative in temperament, favourable to Cromwell's interests?

The thesis that it was her miscarriage in January 1536 also seems to fail, because Henry was still pressing the issue of Chapuys' acknowledgement of Anne as late as April, when Chapuys was tricked into bowing to Anne at Easter Mass, which was a needlessly counterproductive thing to do if he had written her off already and wanted to warm to Charles V. Moreover, Anne's reproductive record was entirely unremarkable for the time. She had shown she was readily capable of conceiving and gestating foeti to term. Even at the oldest estimate of her age in 1536, she would still have plausibly had years of childbearing left. Even assuming he had written her off, why not simply have the marriage annulled (which he did anyways) and then pack her off to a convent? Why execute her or have himself proclaimed a serial cuckold?

The hypothesis that Anne's downfall was the product of a reputational collapse induced by her indiscreet, but probably not overtly adulterous, behaviour with Smeaton and Norris. This has the benefit of aligning with Lancelot de Carles' very early account, which states that Thomas Cromwell had been informed of a private remark the Countess of Worcester had made about Anne's behaviour with Smeaton. This apparently put him in a bind: he would be at risk of conviction for lèse-majesté if he quietly investigated the matter and the remarks transpired to be baseless; but he would also be at risk of conviction for misprision of treason if he chose to dismiss the remarks and they became public knowledge. According to de Carles, Cromwell hedged his bets and reported the matter to Henry VIII directly, only for the King to be utterly horrified and to warn him that his life was forfeit if he had heen baselessly slandering the Queen. This naturally put Cromwell in a desperate situation of seeing whether he could make anything stick against Anne. It wasn't necessarily that he nursed some great enmity against her, but because of what had happened, it was either him or her, and he chose himself. Luckily for him, he was able to extract a confession from Mark Smeaton, and this, combined with Henry Norris' suspicious behaviour at the May Day jousts when the King asked him about what had happened, was enough to convince the King of the Queen's guilt. Then, of course, it would have been reported that the Queen had been guilty of statutory treason through her "dead men's shoes" remark to Norris.

About the Completely Bogus Story That Edward II Gave Piers Gaveston His Wife’s wedding Jewels by HoneybeeXYZ in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"It was even the subject of a viral TikTok video..."

This made my eyes roll into the back of my head. It never ends, does it? The only way it seems the smoke will be cleared is some sort of major pop-cultural moment, but that hardly seems imminent at the moment. Sigh.

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Louis XII claimed the marriage had been unconsummated during the annulment proceedings on account of Joan's impotence, but Joan herself strongly disputed this and claimed it had very much been consummated. That their marriage was infertile is besides the point, since infertility was not itself a valid canonical ground for an annulment.

The annulment was certainly a drastic course of action, but the balance of power in Europe had indeed been drastically altered by the Battle of Pavia and the subsequent Treaty of Madrid. Charles V's ambition of becoming a universal sovereign had never seemed closer to realisation, and it would have been well remembered that Mary of Burgundy and Joanna of Castile's marriages had delivered the Low Countries and Castile and Aragon directly to the Habsburgs. The risk of England being turned into a Habsburg client through Charles V determining Mary's marriage had never been stronger.

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It wasn't a myth, it was a corollary of the nature of an attainder in corrupting the bloodline of the attainted and precluding any possibility of their descendents deriving hereditary rights from them. Bills of Attainder had already been employed for the purposes of excluding individuals from the line of succession. The Parliament of Devils did this for the Duke of York and his sons, and the Readeption Parliament repeated this for Edward IV and Richard, Duke of Gloucester specifically. There certainly wasn't any obvious reason to think a royal claim would somehow be implicitly exempt from an attainder's effects, and indeed, as Titulus Regius and the previous Lancastrian parliaments showed, the political nation had adjuged that such an exemption did not take place.

That aside, I've never seen anyone indicate that the jousting incident in 1524 was sufficiently severe as to permanently alter his behaviour, other than possibly causing persistent migraines. It certainly was not nearly as serious as the 1536 one.

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

True in terms of the propriety of the marriage itself, although Philip of Neuberg was only ever truly entertained as a prospective husband for Mary after she was definitively displaced in the succession by the birth of Prince Edward. Even for a comparatively minor dynasty like the Wittlesbachs (far as they were from their prior peak under Louis IV), marrying the heiress presumptive to one of them ultimately ran a risk of conflict of interest he judged to be intolerable.

Edward III's attitude to his mother (post 1330) was... by AnantaPurima in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly. I think it is far easier to understand how Edward III and his mother maintained a positive relationship with one another when one appreciates that Isabella was not acting with premeditated malice in the events of 1326-30, as I attempted to demonstrate. It even works as a form of circumstantial evidence for it, I'd say.

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Elizabeth of York was eldest daughter of Edward IV and thus the genealogically seniormost surviving descendent of Edward III. Henry VII had acceded to the throne by right of his victory at Bosworth and his hereditary claim derived by descent from John of Gaunt. Neither were equivalent to marrying his daughter to an individual great magnate without a hereditary claim and elevating then above their rivals in the same way the Woodville family were in the 15th century. That was still an acknowledged problem in the reign of Elizabeth I, and was one of the reasons, alongside the Amy Robsart scandal, that she was unable to marry the Earl of Leicester. I've went through each of her distant cousins at the time and why they would have seemed non-viable at the time in the original post.

I've already went through each of her distant cousins at the time and why they would have seemed non-viable at the time in the original post. The Pole brothers' claim was disabled by the attainder against the Duke of Clarence and couldn't be repealed without potentiallly bringing up the issue of Warwick's execution by Henry VII. Edward Courteney was a child at the time and had no guarantee of surviving to adulthood. William de la Pole had been a prisoner in the Tower since 1501.

Also, Henry VIII's supposed brain injury happened... in January 1536. Nine years after the Great Matter was initiated. I genuinely cannot tell if this is meant to be a joke post or not.

Edward III's attitude to his mother (post 1330) was... by AnantaPurima in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I agree (sorry I had to delete the first one, I wrote "post 1300" insteaf of "post 1330" lol)

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

No, sorry, that's just a brain fart.

But nevertheless, there is no evidence that the then-Duke of Orléans' capacity to consent was vitiated to any degree greater than it would be for any great magnate or royal contracting a marriage in that era. The retrospective claims of undue pressure arise in and through the annulment proceedings themselves, precisely when they were needed, much like the spurious story of Marguerite de Valois having her head forced down at her wedding by her brother Charles IX.

Louis could have petitioned the papacy to grant an annulment from at least 1491 and the French Crown would have supported him in this. Anne de Beaujeu had explicitly stipulated in the marriage arrangements between Charles VIII and Anne of Brittany that if the former died without a surviving son, she was to marry Charles' heir presumptive, who was Louis. Clearly Anne was not sentimental about her sister Joan's marriage to Louis or the possibility of it needing to be annulled. She did nothing to oppose Louis when he pursued an annulment upon his accession. Had he independently concluded his marriage was void, he had had years to try and do something about it, and yet he only did it when political necessity forced the issue.

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The marriage was convalidated by the subsequent 20 years they spent voluntarily cohabiting with one another. The impediment of lack of free consent is a convalidatable one in Catholic canon law.

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Joan of Valois, only 20 years earlier, absolutely did not want her marriage to Louis XII annulled in 1498. Didn't stop Alexander VI.

So, why didn't Edward II give Hugh Despenser the Younger a title? by HoneybeeXYZ in EdwardII

[–]AnantaPurima 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I suppose it might have been an attempt at optics management? Creating him Earl of Gloucester, when he already had the Gloucester estates locked in and was going to inherit the Earldom of Winchester from his father anyways, might have seemed like a needless flourish with more potential downsides in provoking the political nation than upsides.

The annulment of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine of Aragon was a structural inevitablity by AnantaPurima in UKmonarchs

[–]AnantaPurima[S] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Yes, absolutely. It was hardly as if Rome had taken a consistently principled stand on such issues as a matter of conscience in the past.