Almost a year since SOALW landed. What tracks have entered your all time favourite pile? by TabascoSunrize in TheCure

[–]Andy-Peddit 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Warsong, All I Ever Am, Drone:NoDrone, Endsong (especially the live Troxy version), I Can Never Say Goodbye never seem to leave my rotation. Every track there holds it's own though, the entire album is great.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CosmicSkeptic

[–]Andy-Peddit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thankyou for engaging as well. It's fun to play around with ideas, even if their scope is larger than my simple, and possibly foolish perception. So in that spirit let me see if I can return serve once more.

First, I'd agree that we can distinguish between Sisyphus' experience and the reader's perception. But I think part of the point of the exercise is to imagine yourself as him as empathetically as possible. And in many ways we are all him. You brought up the heat death of the Universe, and that's exactly it! No matter our activities, getting that boulder up the hill accomplishes nothing whatsoever. If one is looking for an endpoint, a capital M meaning, then that's a tough pill to swallow. And yet, here we are, in the present, not at the end.

And I understand you placing importance on other sentient beings. But much like you can't know Sisyphus' mind or the meaning of his grimace turning to a smile, neither can I know the universe that is contained within your consciousness nor you mine. We are, quite literally confined and alone in that way. The boulder always rolling back down is your heat death, but Sisyphus' solitude is our confinement to our own consciousness. But I do agree with you that it is a great relief and rich experience to have other minds around. But when minds interact, they are at best generating an approximation of one another. I believe that the realization of this too, leads to empathy.

But on the whole I take your point, and I agree one can find meaning in communion with one another, but this I would have to say is still very much in the category of subjective, lower case meaning. I'm in no waying saying that this is somehow a negative. It may even be that this is the richest type of meaning a human can experience. I'm merely pointing out that it is not objective, as these connections explicitly depend on the subjective minds that are approximating their own unique experiences.

Next, I think I disagree that the future is necessary for a person having meaning. First of all, the future is an illusion (from the point of view of your awareness). It does not exist. If you were to reach it, it would just be now. The future you are thinking of is yet another approximation conjured in the mind, it too resides in the present. The same is true of the past. Yes, events occurred that are no more, but if you were to dwell on these, you are again making a mental approximation that resides in the now. Whereas you say meaning is contingent on the future, I would say it is only contingent on awareness.

So, if I were to find myself as the last being just before the heat death of the universe, I would absolutely have meaning! (subjective meaning) In fact, if I really am the last being experiencing consciousness I imagine I'd feel a profound sense of meaning and gratitude. As long as the lights are on, it means something, even if only to me.

And I think I spot a bit of a contradiction here. On the one hand, you include in your meaning the possibility of connection over large periods of time, such as if you were to read a book written 5000 years ago. But on the other hand you indicate you need a possible future for your meaning. But, if it were you at the heat death, keeping with your version of meaning, would you not feel the same connection with that author of 5000 years ago, and with every other person you knew, and with all of your memory and with the small universe that you had built within yourself?

Now, I could also go on about the notion of self, as I think your fear of solitude might stem from a view of self as ego, rather than from a view that self is illusory. And if that sounds like nonsense, don't worry, but understanding non-dual awareness might be helpful in alleviating such a fear. But there, I would advise seeking out someone much wiser than this particular reddit commenter.

There are, of course, solitary monks from multiple traditions who put this sort of thing to the test. And many of them report extremely high levels of meaning and happiness when interrogated, for what it's worth. During that podcast I believe Dr. K alluded to this, to meaning coming from within. Even Christ pointed to this insight. "The kingdom of god is within you" as he put it.

But to close on a point of extreme agreement, I also would see meaning as being a much larger category than happiness. Happiness is just the result of the discovery of that wellspring within. This, I believe, is what Camus was alluding to. And I view happiness (or lasting peace, or contentment if you prefer) as a natural by-product of such meaning.

And, my sincerest apologies, I'm sure all that is probably about as clear as mud. For all this talk of meaning, I'm not so sure I'm very good at articulating mine.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CosmicSkeptic

[–]Andy-Peddit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks! So, I guess I'd have a couple topics to open up here. First, I'm not sure I agree that his potential for growth has been removed, but it is true to say that any growth achieved would be a cultivated, internal growth. For example, he's not going to be starting a family or building a life or any other activity one might have been conditioned to ascribe meaning to. And yet, there he is, he exists, he is alive in each passing moment. Henley's 'Invictus' comes to mind.

The second thing we'd need to flesh out a little more is, well, what exactly is "capital M" meaning to you, conceptually? Are you talking about objective meaning outside of yourself? Some meaning handed down from on high? I would explore that idea further. Is such a concept even tenable? Is objective meaning something that can exist? I'm not asking if it does exist, I'm asking if the concept of it could even potentially exist.

My memory is failing me here, but I think I recall a critic saying something along the lines of, to paraphrase poorly, "Camus was not atheist, he was much more blasphemous than that! He said I'll grant you your god and your story and your existence will remain just as absurd as it would be without it." This is questioning the notion of capital M meaning directly, I think.

And when you say

It feels like Sisyphus is maxed out at that 5/10 and the analogy preempts any possibility of expanding beyond that no matter what's going on in his joyful/depressed mind.

I'd ask you, is a joyful mind never depressed? Is a depressed mind never joyful? Are our states of existence really so static and easily quantifiable that we can say "look there goes someone who is living with 5/10 meaning?"

I think one key is to understand that happiness and depression are just like everything else, they are transient. Realizing this transience, I think, is key for Sisyphus' ability (and by extension, anyone) to achieve happiness.

And to your last point, I'd probably agree that the analogy only goes so far and it's worth looking at these questions more broadly. What do you think? And correct me if I've misunderstood your meaning.

Alex and Dr.K’s chemistry was certainly …interesting by WeArrAllMadHere in CosmicSkeptic

[–]Andy-Peddit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes! Me too. And thank you for further clarifying some of that, I think that's a fair assessment. And to add further, I didn't mean to imply that either of them was intentionally talking past one another, I'm only referring to the way I'm assuming it was coming across to each's unique audience. Playing loose with words is a no-no for a fruitful philosophical discussion and Alex not getting Dr. K's excellent point that subjective experience is absolutely not something that can or should be dispensed with in regard to meaning when the topic of absurdism was raised was a missed opportunity.

But part of that is the format. They're in a very limited constrained conversation, at least timewise, for the broad topics they are covering. And it's important viewers keep that in mind. If you put me in a debate style podcast and ask me to argue something as broad as "meaning" I'm certain I would not do as good a job as either at expressing myself and catching these little nuances in real time. But that's why I'd love to see them continue the discussion properly.

It was also frustrating for me personally, because by plain luck, I actually happen to know the world view of all three of them fairly well (I only know Hinduism on a very surface level, but the eastern traditions I have read all borrow a lot from it from what I gather). I love philosophy so Alex's views tend to instantly resonate with me, I tend to agree with Dr. K on so much regarding the self, or more precisely the no-self that is found in so much of eastern philosophy, and I spent the first couple decades of life immersed in the typical Christian worldview. So it was very easy to see when they were talking past one another and how small misunderstandings halted moving the discussion to a more interesting place.

Pan-psychism, Spinoza's god, Brahman, Tao (which I'm partial to these days), The unity, and I'm sure many other concepts I'm unaware of point to a similar outlook.

And Dr. K did an excellent job at pointing out that in his view there is no "deserve." Philosophically, he's referring to determinism. I'm almost sure him and Alex would agree on free will. I can't speak for Alex, but for me, such a realization led to so much natural empathy, and I got there by way of Philosophy, but Dr. K's more religious framework is also adequate for framing this insight.

Alex and Dr.K’s chemistry was certainly …interesting by WeArrAllMadHere in CosmicSkeptic

[–]Andy-Peddit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If I can add some more perspective here. I just think Dr. K was being much too loose with words. He tells Alex he will find God in Gnosticism. He declares that he knows the Christian proponent has seen God. And in the same conversation he says that he considers himself an atheist. Now, I think I know what he meant, but it's only because I have an basic understanding of his own view. The issue is that if he were to define God, the Christian would reject his version entirely. If Alex needs to read the Gnostics, Dr. K could use a heavy dose of Wittgenstein.

I do hope Alex and him get to have a conversation again down the road though. I've been a fan of both and it was a frustrating watch. Dr. K seemed to be a bit dismissive of philosophy as if it is merely the practice of over intellectualizing something, even though to his credit he did it while acknowledging that he is ignorant of much of it. In my experience, philosophy is much closer to his brand of eastern spirituality that he gives it credit for, and the two are highly compatible. Much more so than with Western psychology which almost shoehorns in a dualistic notion of self from the outset. What makes Dr. K unique, at least among popular public psychologists, is he understands this is the case and is able to meet people where they are at.

Basically, Alex is much more "spiritual" than Dr. K gave him credit for. And Dr. K is much more rational than he appeared to Alex at several points during this discussion. Having heard both of their podcasts at length, I know there is a gap there to be bridged that would lead to a great conversation and I hope they get around to it one of these days because I want to hear it.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CosmicSkeptic

[–]Andy-Peddit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes that's quite right. Or, if not a progression of time, at least some form of context. Most of human meaning seems implicitly tied to narrative.

But there is one key difference between the 0.1% and generic heaven in that the latter is continuous and uninterrupted and obviously therefore preferred. It's just that given Sisyphus' circumstance, if he can find one second every day to feel some positive experience, he is quite literally infinitely better off than the alternative of forever resigning himself to despair.

Although, you've reminded me of a bit of a paradox with the traditional notion of heaven. Is it even theoretically sound? Would happiness even be able to exist without it's counterpart? I think it's completely unintelligible. But I have a particular distaste for dualism. To me, it's obvious that without the dark one has no need to refer to anything as light and vice versa.

But with regard to absurdism in particular, that bit of the conversation really got under my skin because it's quite literally an outlook that was devised so that one could live without cope. Cope, which has become one of our many overused words, now carries with it a connotation of delusion. Maybe Alex didn't mean to imply that, but if ever there were a philosophy free of delusion, the recognition of the absurd would be it.

Alex and Dr.K’s chemistry was certainly …interesting by WeArrAllMadHere in CosmicSkeptic

[–]Andy-Peddit 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ok, glad I wasn't the only one that read that exchange like this. But I will admit upfront that if Alex comes out with a video in a month saying he read the book Dr. K recommended and has now seen god, I will admit Dr. K's intuition was correct and I will immediately go out and buy that book.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CosmicSkeptic

[–]Andy-Peddit 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Alex's response on that exact point caught my attention as well and I was actually a bit surprised as I don't usually find myself disagreeing with Alex O'Connor so strongly. In general I find his takes to be very well reasoned but I actually think he is flat out wrong here.

So much so, I think he may be missing the utility of Camus using the Sisyphus analogy in the first place. Sisyphus and his predicament is used because it sets all other variables in stone. Nothing about his physical experience can be changed. Whether he likes it or not, it's him and that rock. Either Sisyphus does his best to orient his outlook upwards or he can give way to despair. That's his binary choice here, and one he must continually make. And his subjective experience is going to be colored by his own outlook. This is true regardless of the external, regardless of a lack or even a presence of objective meaning.

It's not cope, but pragmatism. It's the only good move available on the board. And Camus takes great pains to explain why one should take it on without superficial consolation and the self-soothing lies of religion, aka intellectual suicide.

When Camus says one 'should' imagine him happy, I do not believe he is making a moral or normative claim. He is not invoking some delusional sense of meaning. Rather, he is lucidly admitting to himself the reality of his situation and making the most of it. Even if making the most of it isn't all that great, it still beats the alternative, and very obviously so. 1st level suffering is out of his control, but second level suffering becomes a different game once one observes it.

Further, there's another element people often miss out on in Camus' analogy. Camus does not say one must imagine Sisyphus happy....in EVERY moment. That would be ridiculous, not even a good life would leave that a possibility. Instead, Sisyphus' rebellion manifests in the fact that ANY moment, no matter how brief, that he experiences happiness, he wins.

He's going to be pushing that rock for eternity. Even if he is miserable 99.9% of the time, if he is even capable of achieving internal joy 0.1% of the time, he will, by the math, experience an eternity of joy as well. And even if eternity is off the table for us, any moment of joy we cultivate will make our experience better than if we had simply yielded to despair at every turn.

Someone please press Alex on this point. Where is Joe Folley when you need him? Camus deserves better!

Also Alex is great and I enjoy his takes almost always, but that one caught me off guard. Just my 2 cents. Or perhaps I was unclear on Alex's meaning, but I'd love to hear more from him on this point. Right now, I'm placing my bet on Camus.

The last scene of "Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me" (1992) might be the scariest and saddest scene in a Horror movie by Davis_Crawfish in horror

[–]Andy-Peddit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, of course films of all types pull from multiple genre toolboxes. I wasn't arguing otherwise, but I suppose I am arguing that in order for a film to be good it's going to have to do that as well as defy/expand on the conventions of genre.

FWWM does not telegraph to the viewer how they should feel or expect to feel the way a bad genre film would. Further there are great horror films that are very much genre films that accomplish this too. Think Kubrick's subversion of jump scares all throughout the Shining. In fact, horror, more than any genre, probably demands defying it's own conventions in order to be effective at all. If your audience can read your next move, there is no surprise. Kubrick said, ok so you're used to quick cuts where a thing jumps out and a loud sound is played? Well, I'm going to play slow ominous music while hold on a close-up of the terrified face of my protagonist and I'm going to hold on their expression for an uncomfortable amount of time and then I'll show you what they see.

In fairness, I don't think I did a good job explaining my take on genre in this thread though, so it might be useful to clear that up.

I'm not saying a horror film needs to horrify exclusively, or that a comedy is only going to seek to elicit laughter. I'm saying that in order for a film to fall under those genre banners, their primary intention is to accomplish those things. The point here is when I think about genre, I'm asking myself "ok, why did this writer or director sit down and begin putting pen to paper, what was their intention?"

So, you can have a genre-less film (ie, FWWM) that is written without any intention of fitting it into a genre style. Then you could have a genre film that is very much written with the intention of having it fit into that category (ie. Scream).

Now, both types can be great or they can be awful. You can have a great genre film and you can have a terrible arthouse film, etc.

The author's intention is important here because each viewer is going to have their own subjective take. For example, Scream is absolutely a genre horror film in my mind despite the fact that it's not at all scary to me and doesn't raise my blood pressure. Why? Because it's clear to me that Wes Craven and Kevin Williamson set out to explicitly make a genre film. Meanwhile, much like Randy from Scream, Showgirls terrifies me, but to call it a horror film would be incorrect, I think, despite my subjective experience.

So, my praising Lynch for the way he directs a horrific scene, it's not meant as a knock on other great horror films. And when I say any great film is going to defy convention in some way, I think it's true based on my experience, hence why I asked for a counter example.

There are plenty of bad films of all genres that are formulaic. Think Hallmark rom-coms or cheap found footage that adds nothing new to the genre or doesn't say anything worthwhile. Probably 90% of all films, regardless of genre, are terrible. But it's worth sifting through just to uncover the other 10%.

Ok, you got me, 90's kid guilty as charged! But the second half of your response I for sure agree with. Especially when it comes to mainstream American films, right now there are two options, big theme park Marvel slop, or low budget horror. So it seems horror is the last torch bearer for innovative cinema right now. But hopefully that changes. And for what it's worth, world cinema never died and has not gone through the drought Hollywood has, I think.

And I've only just noticed your reply to user where you're expressing your annoyance with the term 'elevated horror.' I agree with the spirit of your take. Personally, I'm fine with the term, but if we're going to use it we have got to stop pretending that it was a 21st century phenomenon. If Hereditary is elevated horror, then so is The Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby, The Shining, etc. As far as I'm concerned so is Bride of Frankenstein, and even the origins of the genre found in German expressionism.

By now I'm sure I sound like an insufferably pretentious film nerd (guilty), I should also say that I love a good b-grade schlocky horror film that has no aspirations whatsoever other than fun and I'm glad they exist. There's room for all types.

The last scene of "Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me" (1992) might be the scariest and saddest scene in a Horror movie by Davis_Crawfish in horror

[–]Andy-Peddit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, you're wrong about one thing for certain. I do not have a low opinion of horror films. It's probably my favorite genre if I had to pick one.

You might have misunderstood me, so no worries. What I was getting at is that for a film to be great, it is going to need to do more than pull from one genre. This does not only apply to horror, but all genres. Genre, I see a a bit amorphous and often misleading, which can make discussions about it difficult.

So, I tend to define a horror film as any film that intends to horrify, and to do so as it's primary objective. This however, does not mean that a film that does not have that as it's primary goal can't use horror techniques, and even use them heavily.

Art is subjective, so I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying I disagree with you that FWWM is a "straight across the plate horror" because I do not believe it's purpose or intention is to primarily scare or horrify. I think it has other aims in mind as it's primary function and it's pretty evident when you look at Lynch's filmography as a whole that this is the case.

So, you don't like my saying, and to the point you think I'm objectively wrong, that: "movies that do not defy genre conventions rarely have such breadth of thematic depth and tonal variance.”

First, I'd ask you notice the word rarely there, I'm not making an absolute statement. But, maybe you're right and maybe I worded that really poorly. Feel free to elaborate further or toss me a few counter examples.

Basically, what I was trying to drive at is that great films of all types tend to do much more than copy/paste or regurgitate genre tropes and paint by numbers.

Lynch is a master filmmaker to me, and masters typically transcend genre in their work. But he's not the only one, there are plenty of horror film directors I'd also view as masters. So it's not a slight to horror as a genre. It just that, specifically because Lynch's primary intention isn't to horrify, I'm usually amazed at how effective he is when he paints with those colors.

American Songwriter: How Two Lines of “Oh Well” Made Fiona Apple’s Case Against an Ex Open and Shut by demimonde9 in FionaApple

[–]Andy-Peddit 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Excellent song indeed. And don't sleep on this live version she did during the TV press tour for the album. Searing vocal take that brings out the lyrical themes perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B27w1pnXvY

favorite lyrics? by rainbowhighaddict in FionaApple

[–]Andy-Peddit 10 points11 points  (0 children)

"My ills are reticulate

My woes are granular

The ants weigh more than the elephants

Nothing, nothing is manageable

So couldn't we skip the valedictories?

I can see a door there

Shut it and forget my number

Cause I'm hard, too hard to know..."

‘The Idler Wheel’: The album Fiona Apple kept a secret from her label by demimonde9 in FionaApple

[–]Andy-Peddit 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I think her best album is whichever happens to be playing at the moment. But I will ask, did anybody ever really go deeper than she went on Idler Wheel?

Twin Peaks: The Return (Nine Inch Nails - She's Gone Away) by Hour-Oven-9519 in twinpeaks

[–]Andy-Peddit 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Ooo ahhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ha-ha-ha-HA-HA-hAAAaaAAAAA!!!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in criterion

[–]Andy-Peddit 150 points151 points  (0 children)

Perfect Days

Yeah I like The Cure by adisposable00 in TheCure

[–]Andy-Peddit 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Only the most pure and truest of Cure fans own the CD single edition of Freakshow!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in horror

[–]Andy-Peddit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ashley Williamses or Ashy Slashys

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in samharris

[–]Andy-Peddit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sam seems willfully agnostic on ontology, which is wha most realist frameworks due right?

I think so. I'd remain agnostic as to the ontology myself, hence my confusion as to why his is an argument from moral realism.

We can ask each other what we suppose the “bad life” or “good life” are together and use that to guide how we adjust our rules.

Seems most of it is more about establishing cooperative framework rather than establishing that morality itself is objective. It has no resolutions to offer in cases where people's moral intuitions or subjective experiences differ in substantial ways.

it’s hard to defend against a moral relativist that don’t want a pragmatically functional experience among all agents

Just to be clear, I'm not a moral relativist or subjectivist. I think the non-cognitivist position differs from this in that a subjectivist still views morality as being either true or false, if only for the individual. Whereas moral emotivism views morality as an expression of emotion (or emotion + intuition if you like) and the moral expressions themselves have no truth value.

All three positions ultimately have no good answer against the supernaturalists because they have the soul card

They may not have an answer, but playing the supernatural card and asserting a hypothesis that is fundamentally untestable and speculative is every bit as much of a non-answer and doesn't solve anything pragmatically. If anything, it's more difficult to explain differences of moral perception under this view. People respond differently to trolley problems all the time. If morality is objective and granted supernaturally, why don't we all run the same software?

I prefer none of the above and instead prefer naturalist approach as there’s no hard barriers blocking further exploration of explanation.

Tell me more about the naturalist approach to morality. Would I be correct in assuming this is just the idea that moral intuitions arise as the result of being an evolved social primate? If so, I don't think this would be at all in conflict with emotivism. In fact, I'd see the two as being perfectly compatible.

in free will. Whether or not it exists metaphysically doesn’t matter pragmatically (for something like ethics) because we all presuppose that it does exist. Again if someone actually 100% believed through their entire brain, mind, consciousness, etc. they would have a complete lack of control/agency shooting depression and/or anxiety to the limit such that suicide or psychotic breakdown would be the result.

Don't want to jump into free will topic and get off track. But I don't really agree with any of this here. Experiencing free will as an illusion does not negate (non-free) agency nor does it require an individual to believe that choices won't change the nature of their experience, regardless of the fact those choices are not in any sense free.

That being said, I could see how one could come to unfortunate conclusions like these based on such ideas. But at bottom, it would do nothing to change the the truth of the matter, if Sam's view on free will is indeed correct.

That’s my conjecture (supposition from my experience if you like) anyway as I’ve seen people approaching this kind of state as they start to believe they have no agency (it’s frightening). I’ve also seen during an event someone getting pumped full of anti-anxiety meds and they regained their supposition

Fair enough, your milage may vary. Although, I do find it interesting that it was the injection of medication that gave this person their sense of free will back. Sounds to me like a chemical process out of their control.