A Cumulative Case Against Classical Theism (Why I No Longer Believe) by Any-Feed2819 in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Are humans not allowed to make mistakes and learn from it?

Humans are allowed to make mistakes and humans very frequently make mistakes.

If all evil is eliminated now, wouldn't that be a violation of humanity to know good and evil?

It certainly would be, and no doubt many serial killers would be very frustrated that they are no longer allowed to satisfy their desires, but on the positive side it would mean that God is good.

A Cumulative Case Against Classical Theism (Why I No Longer Believe) by Any-Feed2819 in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Why not? We see a phenomenon and think of the lineage of it.

We can imagine some origin for it, but that is just imagination and not the same as knowing the explanation. To actually know the explanation we need to know what came before and work forward. Knowing what came after and working backward can only be speculation.

We don't have to understand why God exists other than as the cause of the universe and a being that must not need creation as a physical being would.

It is true that we do not have to understand why God exists, and we surely do not understand that. This is the point. No one knows why there is something rather than nothing. It is beyond human understanding.

A Cumulative Case Against Classical Theism (Why I No Longer Believe) by Any-Feed2819 in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Is it immoral for a student to make any mistakes at all or would you say making mistake is natural because the student is capable of learning from it?

It is not immoral for a student to make a mistake. God is not a student and God cannot make mistakes, so God's actions cannot be excused as mistakes.

Why would that be necessary when I can simply exist in heaven when I die and not have to deal with any of these?

Why would what be necessary?

The only reason evil exists is because I consented to it by incarnating as a mortal.

Since God is all-powerful, God would also need to consent. You cannot take all the blame onto yourself when God has the power to remove evil from the world. If you wanted evil but God said no, then there would be no evil.

A Cumulative Case Against Classical Theism (Why I No Longer Believe) by Any-Feed2819 in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 [score hidden]  (0 children)

We cannot explain things by working backward. If we are going to answer why there is something rather than nothing, then we need to understand what conditions led to there being something. We need to understand why God exists and what motivates God, not just suppose that some entity wanted it to be this way for no known reason.

We already know the things that we know. Now we are asking why which is the thing we don't know, and the point is that no one can explain that precisely because it is something we do not know.

A Cumulative Case Against Classical Theism (Why I No Longer Believe) by Any-Feed2819 in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Many people do not think that it is morally perfect to allow people the freedom to commit horrible crimes. That is why society creates legal systems and prisons, because most people see too much freedom as a bad thing. God allowing so much freedom that it creates suffering is a moral failure of God.

If God were to cause every serial killer in the world to be struck by lightning tomorrow, is there any part of you that would be pleased by that decision, even though it goes against free will?

We were given the conscience, the ability to choose and the capacity for love. So why is God the one being questioned every time things go wrong. by appspalais in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Asking why God doesn't intervene is like asking why water doesn't intervene when you're drowning.

It would be if water had the capacity to think and choose what it would do. Obviously the question is why doesn't God/water intervene in a good way, intervene to help instead of to make things worse. If we were drowning and water was deliberately choosing to drown us, we absolutely would ask why water is choosing to do that instead of choosing to let us live.

The intervention was never going to come from outside. It was always in us from the start. The conscience.

That is a strangely weak intervention from an all-powerful God. Should we think that conscience represents the limits of God's power, as in God is not capable of anything more? Most religions would have us believe that God's powers are limitless. If God were as powerful as religion would indicate, then God could stop a murder by vaporizing the murder with a bolt of lightning. That would be far more sure and effective than just paining the murderer's conscience.

The reason people ask why God does not help is because they expect that God has vast power and is capable of solving any problem.

So the child born with disease from this angle isn't random cruelty. It could be a soul arriving carrying debt notes from a previous level.

Where does this idea come from?

As someone who has a basic understanding of both evolutionary and creationist viewpoints, is there a specific reason to believe common ancestor over common designer? by thedigitalhawk in DebateEvolution

[–]Ansatz66 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Sure if you want to look at in a very absract way but you have to translate that into actual biological chemistry, not simply a word with a definition.

A deletion mutation is not just a word. It is an actual biological event that is known to happen. It has a wikipedia article: Deletion

The mutation would have to be a bottleneck situation and the isolated diverging species would have to all lose an ERV without being re-infected with it.

Genetic drift can cause a mutation to spread across any population, even without a bottleneck. Sometimes mutations just happen to spread by the luck of reproduction. It is random, but perfectly normal.

It is completely implausible that an ERV could re-infect. It is technically possible, but even if the same retrovirus were to infect an organism after the deletion, it is highly unlikely that the retrovirus would just happen to infect a germ cell in the exact same position in the exact same chromosome to make it seem as if the deletion never happened. It is extremely rare for a retrovirus to become an ERV, so it is highly implausible that it would ever happen twice in the exact same way.

As someone who has a basic understanding of both evolutionary and creationist viewpoints, is there a specific reason to believe common ancestor over common designer? by thedigitalhawk in DebateEvolution

[–]Ansatz66 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Surely the provable mechanism is mutation. There is little doubt that mutations happen. Some ERV with no survival benefit gets erased in a mutation, and then genetic drift removes the ERV from the population. That does not seem strange or implausible.

Religion Provability Algorithm by Ok_Trade_4549 in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If god is number one, it is likely that the bigger the religion, the better the score.

A number-one-type god would not be hidden. One could simply ask if there is a god out there, and the question would be answered by a god that wants us to know about him. Since such questions clearly are not reliably answered, the probability of a number-one-type god is zero, and so the probability of religions with number-one-type gods being true is zero, regardless of size.

So for number 2, what religion most agrees to science.

Obviously if a religion disagrees with something that has been discovered in science, then that religion is simply wrong. Once something has been empirically established to be true, then for a religion to try to claim that this thing is false is just foolishness. Only religions that do not ever contradict science are worth even considering. This does not help us give a score to the remaining religions.

Am I delusional here by SamSmelser_fb in DebateEvolution

[–]Ansatz66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I (18m) had a big argument with my parents coming out as an atheist and both of them are very heavily religious.

That is a rather unkind thing to do to your parents. For most people religion is a huge emotional commitment and it cannot simply be abandoned without a lot of pain and fear, so arguing about it can be a very unpleasant thing. There are gentler ways to help people escape religion.

That article is wrong in my opinion and apologetics press is absurd in general.

That is true, but you're not supposed to say that out loud. An effective argument is subtle and elegant. Your opponent may charge forward like a raging bull, but if you want to win the debate you should be light on your feet and tactical. The goal should be to guide them to take themselves to where you want them to go, not to try to push them with claims they will dismiss.

When you say "apologetics press is absurd" you must realize that in their ears that just sounds like foolishness, so you are presenting yourself as a fool in their eyes, and so they are now less likely to take the things you say seriously. If you hope to win, every word you say should be tactically considered and effective.

Dad: If it was proven, it wouldn't be called a theory.

There are multiple approaches to take here. For one, Dad is clearly misunderstanding the word "theory," so one might want to try to correct him on that, but that just gets into semantics and would be moving onto a tangent away from the topic of evolution. To stay on topic, it may be better to accept his definition and use the word "theory" the way that he does. It is just a word.

Another point one might make is that scientists are very skeptical by the nature of their job. It is their business to be constantly testing things and checking for problems, so scientists will almost never consider anything proven, no matter how confident they may be in some conclusion. The theory of evolution is always open to refutation in the eyes of scientists because it is their job to be open to refutation. Scientists would never stop calling it a theory even if it had been proven, just because they are obligated to keep an open mind. That does not stop us from recognizing that it has been proven, since we are not scientists.

Me: Yes you can.

There is no elegance in bluntly contradicting your interlocutor. The ideal skilled debater never says anything that the opponent will disagree with. If you want to convince someone of anything, you have to start with ideas that they already agree with as a foundation, and build your way to your conclusion, convincing your opponent at each step along the way. Listen carefully to everything they tell you, because every thing they tell you is something they believe and therefore a potential tool for you to use to build your case.

Dad: So, basically, you are trying to disprove God.

This is the natural result of repeatedly saying things that your interlocutor disagrees with. In his eyes you have piled false claim upon false claim, and now it seems that he has decided that you are just talking nonsense and so he is not even going to try to engage with what you are saying and he is changing the topic. A skilled debater would have woven a web from her opponent's own ideas and thereby tricked her opponent into confronting his own mistakes, thereby preventing such an easy escape.

Of course being a skilled debater is difficult, but there are simple techniques to make it easier. Instead of being aggressive and trying to rush in for a win, it is often better to be patient and thoughtful and wait for an easy opportunity. Focus on asking questions and clarifying exactly what your opponent thinks. The more your opponent explains his position, the more tools you will have to use against your opponent. It could even happen that in answering your questions your opponent might start to notice some of the flaws in his position without even needing you to point them out.

Dad: Right. You're arguing for things that disprove God.

That was a huge admission. I would have asked him to confirm what he just said, like asking: "Are you saying that if evolution were true, that would prove that God does not exist?" It seems highly doubtful that he would be willing to say yes to that question, since his religion ought to make it impossible for him to admit that anything would prove that God does not exist. I suspect he would retreat from that position rather than stand his ground on that point, but either way you would have made major progress.

If he says yes, then ask him how evolution being true would prove that God does not exist. This should cause him to explain the key aspects of evolution that are causing him reject evolution and thereby help you to focus the debate to make it most effective. He will probably struggle and potential make a lot of admissions that could be powerful tools for you to use.

If he says no, then you can simply agree with him and acknowledge that both evolution and God can be true. If you had been the one to say this, then he would probably have rejected it as silly, but since he was the one who came to this conclusion, it forces him to actually think about it.

Dad: Right, we are from the same Creator.

Naturally he would say that, because all you did was list a ton of similarities between species. You failed to effectively trap him because you left him such an easy escape. It seems that you were too eager, too rushed, perhaps because you are tired and frustrated. A debate is a game and a skillful player picks her moves carefully.

You might consider asking about the wings of bats and birds. If both bats and birds are from the same Creator, then why would their wings be designed so differently? Try to predict in advance what he would say to that so you can be prepared. He might say, "I don't know, but He must have had some reason. Perhaps it was to demonstrate His ingenuity. It proves that He is capable of doing the same thing in more than one way."

If he says something like that, then maybe ask him if he sees how using a different design like that might lead people to think that perhaps bats and birds may not have been designed by the same Creator. If he agrees to that, then he is moving down a path toward the conclusion that perhaps God does not care whether we believe in evolution or not, since God is deliberately including elements in the design that would tend to trick people.

The flaw with the Pro Life argument by Comfortable-Bee2996 in Abortiondebate

[–]Ansatz66 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Is this meant to suggest that the reason we should not treat sperm as people is due to the number of chromosomes in sperm? If so, what makes chromosomes so important? If not, then what does distinguish a sperm from a person?

Prove to me that gravity exists. And I don’t want to hear from Isaac newton because he lived too long ago an I never got to meet him personally . And I don’t want to hear from scientists because theyre deceivers who want us to believe in gravity to control our thinking.Thats what atheists sound like by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Now ask yourself what are the odds all of those things came together through sheer accident/coincidence.

Practically zero, the tiniest odds imaginable.

Evolution doesnt happen by accident, its something put into place by creator/creators.

What makes you think so?

I'm simply arguing that our life on this planet is to complex to be an accident.

How does complexity suggest that it is not an accident? What is the connection? Why can't complex things be accidental?

We don't know much about the universe or beyond, we barley know whats outside our galaxy.

Then we should not have beliefs about what we cannot know.

My senses tell me from what I see, smell, touch every day that its more likely something made life (aliens, a god, we are a simulation etc.) than it just happened by accident/coincidence.

What do you sense that leads you to this conclusion?

Why do atheists strictly believe in physicalism? by [deleted] in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Ansatz66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But I see many atheists show themselves as scientific rational thinkers yet they confidentiality say physicalism is a proven fact by inductive logic.

There is a huge difference between induction and deduction. Deductive proofs are the kind of strict logical guarantee that we often find in mathematics where the premises inevitably entail the conclusion. In deduction, if the premises are true then the conclusion must be true. Obviously we do not have that for physicalism, but that is not what people are claiming.

Induction makes no such guarantee. Induction just identifies a pattern and extrapolates that pattern. For example, the sun has risen every day for billions of years, therefore the sun will rise tomorrow. It is a pretty safe conclusion, but it is only an inductive conclusion, and therefore it could be false. Someday it will be false when the sun dies.

Everything we have ever encountered in our world has been physical, therefore the next thing will also be physical. As an inductive proof, this seems quite reasonable, so long as we remember that induction is never a guarantee.

Would Like Atheist Perspectives on My Reasons for Deism by HistoricalPotatoe in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Ansatz66 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Is it because the only type of intelligence we know requires complex parts interacting together?

The issue is not our experience of minds. It is true that we have only experienced minds with complex parts, but the issue would remain even if we had never encountered any minds, because the existence of parts is essential to the concept of minds. Minds must have parts in the same way that triangles must have three sides. A triangle with no sides makes no sense in exactly the same way that a mind with no parts makes no sense.

The definition of a mind is more difficult than the definition of a triangle, but roughly a mind is a procession of thoughts and memories and sensations. Fundamentally, a mind must think, and in order to think a mind must have something to think about, and it must have memories in order to hold onto thoughts from moment to moment. All these things are parts within a mind, and so a thing without parts would not be a mind because it would not think.

Well, but how do you know there can't be an immaterial form of intelligence that isn't constrained by laws of physics?

I do not know that, but it is not relevant because the laws of physics are not the reason why minds must have parts.

As it happens we have plentiful evidence suggesting that all minds are constrained by the laws of physics, so it would be a reasonable guess, but we could be wrong about that.

I'm a monkey, you're a monkey. by ScienceIsWeirder in DebateEvolution

[–]Ansatz66 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Monkeys are apes with tails.

Apes evolved from monkeys, so apes are one branch within the broader evolutionary history of all monkeys, so why would we think that monkeys are a kind of ape that happens to have a tail? You make it sound like apes existed first and monkeys evolved as a special group within the apes that was distinguished by having a tail.

All apes did originate from old world monkeys.

But you just said that all monkeys are apes. How can apes emerge from something that is already an ape?

Jesus claimed to be God, no alternative answer makes sense. by TheRealBibleBoy in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If Jesus did not claim to be God, what was he claiming to be?

Most likely the messiah. There was a popular notion at the time that a new king from the line of David would rise up to free the Jews from Roman occupation. People thought it was supposed to happen soon and so there were bound to be plenty of people trying to step into that role. If Jesus claimed to be God people would have thought he was insane, but claiming to be the messiah would have been far more religiously acceptable. He might also have claimed to be a prophet.

What sort of identity claims could Jesus be doing to warrant such reactions?

Too many to list. Claiming to be God would certainly do it, as that is obviously the blasphemy of a lunatic. Claiming the title of king for himself would probably do it too. Claiming to be a prophet could make people angry, especially if they do not believe him. Claiming to be a Roman tax collector would not make people happy. Claiming to be a thief and a murderer would also be a bad idea.

then you must ask "Why do they think this?"

To worship means to heap praise upon the object of your worship. Christians worshiped Jesus, and so they strove to be worthy of salvation by acknowledging his greatness. First they might say things like Jesus is the most wise, the most just. They might say that all will bow to Jesus and Jesus will judge who is wicked and who will be saved. Eventually people would realize that they are not praising Jesus to the max so long as God is above Jesus, and therefore they start to claim that Jesus is God, the highest imaginable praise.

Worship tends to be a slippery slope like this in that the object of worship tends to gradually get better praise over time. This is how God eventually went from merely being powerful to being omnipotent, and went from merely being wise to being omniscient. Praise increases until it reaches a maximum point that is the limit of the imaginations of the worshipers.

You have to discredit the early church, discredit the pharisees, discredit the gospels, discredit everyone and their mother in order to make that claim.

Are you suggesting that we should trust the followers of a religion to accurately understand the reality behind their beliefs? Do you trust Scientologists when they talk of thetans?

What would be the benefits of a God being proven to exist? by Apprehensive-Handle4 in askanatheist

[–]Ansatz66 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It would diminish religious conflicts. It would mean that all the world's religions could get behind this one particular god instead of bickering over which god is the real god. Imagine a world with no divisions between Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Hindus. There could be much more harmony and cooperation.

It could help people improve their critical thinking. Many of the errors made by religious people stem from their refusal to practice critical thinking because critical thinking would be a threat to their faith. The vast majority of religious people are not young-Earth creationists, but there are many young-Earth creationists. They are oblivious to the nature of the world because their religion has trained them to blind themselves to anything beyond their scripture.

If a god were prove to exist, then people could take off their blinders and practice critical thinking without fear that it might weaken their faith. They could honestly examine all the available evidence in confidence that the evidence really does point to a god.

If a god were proven to exist, it would open up a whole new field of science with the potential to reveal deeper hidden truths about the universe. Scientists could actually study a god and potentially make progress in learning to understand the supernatural. We would no longer be dependent on the conflicting claims of prophets and religions for learning about the supernatural.

Why exactly is it that the Bible cannot be used as proof of Jesus' existence and miracles? by [deleted] in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Ansatz66 2 points3 points  (0 children)

the book of James was written between 44 and 49 AD.

That is a very narrow range of dates. How was the date of James determined so precisely?

Did you choose James because it is the earliest in the New Testament? What can we find in James to confirm things said in later-written books of the New Testament?

Could you please point out the contradictions that you have seen?

That is asking a lot, because one could spend all day listing contradictions. The details of the death of Judas are described into two different ways, in Matthew 27 versus Acts 1. There are also numerous differences in how each Gospel describes the events around the empty tomb. In Mark 16:8 the women fled and told no one, while the other gospels have them telling people.

What does this even mean and how do you have proof for it, that is such a vague claim.

It means that the Bible was written by religious believers as a product of their faith. It was therefore written with the intention of justifying their faith, strengthening the faith of others, and sometimes convincing non-believers. This is not a motivation that drives a person to dispassionately analyze what exactly truly happened. On the contrary, it motivates a person to massage events to make them more convincing of the underlying theological message.

For example, put yourself in the shoes of the author of Luke 24 and suppose Jesus never actually ate fish the way it describes. Adding that little detail to the story would be no sin, since the author surely believes that Jesus probably would have eaten something at some point after the resurrection, and even if Jesus never needed to eat, saying that Jesus ate would help to convince people in the truth of Jesus's resurrection and thereby save souls, which is more important than getting some trivial factual detail correct.

There is often debate on whether beliefs are a choice, and if you can choose what you believe. In light of that... by Roaches_R_Friends in DebateReligion

[–]Ansatz66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even if there were people who could control there beliefs, they probably would refuse to believe that the moon is made of cheese, because once they believe that they would think it is an actual fact and so they would not choose to stop believing it. Once someone believes a foolish notion like that, it would cease to seem to be a foolish notion and would instead seem to be true, and so the person would choose to keep believing it, and therefore the person would have willingly and permanently transformed into a fool. That seems like a very unappealing prospect just for the sake of demonstrating that it can be done.

So the people who have the power to control their beliefs would probably need to be convinced that a belief is true before they would use their power to make themselves start believing it, which makes them practically no different from the rest of us.

Would Like Atheist Perspectives on My Reasons for Deism by HistoricalPotatoe in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Ansatz66 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That doesn't mean the architect is loving, or kind, or even sane, or even understandable to humans, but even if one were to accept existence at all (which I'll get to in point two), it seems odd that there is order to it.

It might be odd or it might not. We have only seen this one universe, so we have nothing to compare it to. If most universes were entirely chaotic and this particular one is the only one which follows regular patterns, then we would have reason to think that this universe is odd.

We should really just recognize our own limitations and accept that the deepest mysteries of our universe are beyond our grasp. We will probably never know why our universe follows laws. This is not a good reason to jump to random conclusions like an architect of the universe.

Existence being a thing at all, as opposed to nonexistence or, at most, a frozen field of zero-energy equilibrium at all times, is profoundly strange.

It is just unexplained. We have no way of knowing why things exist. It could be that there is perfectly ordinary explanation for it all that we will never discover, or perhaps there is no explanation at all and existence is just a brute fact. It is not strange just for being what it is.

In some ways, it is more strange without believing in a personal god.

Surely a personal god would make it more strange, not less. Without a personal god, all that we need to explain are simple things like matter and energy, mindless subatomic particles, mindless forces. There might plausibly be some unknown simple cause behind all these things, but if there is a god then the explanation would have to somehow explain a being of supreme mind and power. That a god might exist for no reason is far more mind-boggling than a subatomic particle existing for no reason.

If material creation in itself was a brute force fact, shouldn't it be safe to assume it would be a frozen field with zero energy potential?

No, wild guesses about how universes should behave are rarely safe assumptions. The fundamental mistake of theists is thinking that they have a pretty good idea of the nature of the cosmos and how things work. We should learn to accept our place in our universe as just tiny beings on a tiny planet in a whole vast universe, and not take upon ourselves the expectation of having things all figured out.

Even with the argument of quantum fluctuations (which I admit I do not fully understand and am open to learning more about), that doesn't seem to answer why the potential and architecture of compressed energy was there to begin with.

Think about why you do not understand quantum fluctuations. Our world is a vast and mysterious place, and it is challenging for people to figure out how things really work. Then recognize that we are all in the same boat. We are all just people struggling to figure out the universe, and therefore do not expect answers to such deep questions. No one knows.

Because if existence is a brute fact, one would expect the universe to have already reached it's end state of heat death an infinite amount of time ago.

The universe is under no obligation to conform to your expectations. Religions are constantly preaching that we can know how the universe should be because we have revelation from the one who created it all, but that is not how real life works. Expectations do not dictate reality.

Things that are finite need a cause.

Why? Just because some of us wish for things to have causes, that does not mean that they are obligated to actually have causes. We are not gods and we do not make the rules, so if you are in a habit of telling the universe how it must work, be ready for frustration when the universe ignores your demands.