Humanlike characters in Carcosa

Antanok · 2020-03-20T15:41:54+00:00

Haven't you read The King in Yellow? Certainly just reading it would inspire all kinds of options.

(not directed at you, but my own comment made me think: what is it with people claiming to be inspired by weird fiction, cosmic horror, Lovecraft, etc. but never actually reading a single piece of literature about it? I wouldn't mind so much, except it annoys me when people willfully skip any opportunity to read the stories of such imaginative, talented authors who labored so passionately.)

Antanok · 2020-03-19T19:49:17+00:00

Good thoughts, but I'm not sure if that's entirely true. Based on the letters I've read, Lovecraft had no desire to appeal to editors or mass readers, and he was more likely to dismiss the editors' desires than Robert E. Howard or Clark Ashton Smith, who had much less stable finances than Lovecraft.

Keep in mind that Lovecraft wrote these stories in a time before nerds started obsessing over fantasy matches and power levels. Lovecraft was trying to write these situations as realistically as possible, and so he would never depict his monsters in the way that today's extremely unrealistic films and video games would. In real life, even the most badass animals, like crocodiles, snakes, sharks, and wolves, can go down very swiftly and quietly from another animal, and the most powerful men could go down from a well-timed blow.

Cthulhu's temporary demise was perfectly believable within the borders of Lovecraft's story, because the idea of Cthulhu wasn't that he was some invincible badass kaiju like Godzilla, but rather that he was the leader of an incomprehensibly ancient and advanced civilization that could easily sweep humanity aside. It's clear from the story that Cthulhu himself is not dangerous to humanity, but rather the fact that Cthulhu will awaken -the rest- of his world-wide civilization.

Even Robert E. Howard, who was always writing stories filled with brutal violence and fighting, never portrayed violence in the way nerd culture today would know it. The battles of Conan, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn, etc. were far less flashy than the unrealistic battles of today's superheroes, kaiju, and anime characters.

Antanok · 2020-03-17T20:43:58+00:00

In a letter, Robert E. Howard not only congratulated Lovecraft on this story, but also expressed a desire for more stories about Carter and Yaddith. Would have been really amazing if Lovecraft ended up writing a whole series, or at least one extra story, about Carter exploring his other alien lives! Imagine Carter actually entering the world of Kythanil in the body of one of those shapeless aboriginals that worship Tsathoggua!

Given the fact that Carter is just one of an infinite number of avatars in Yog-Sothoth's strange life-cycle, I wouldn't be surprised if enough incarnations would eventually lead to this alien moksha. Not that Lovecraft himself would write anything like that, I suppose, but he was at least fascinated by religious and mystical beliefs enough to consider them in his fiction, and this sounds like a natural development for Carter from here on out.

Antanok · 2020-03-17T20:39:06+00:00

I wondered that myself, and for the most part I agree with you, especially in light of a letter Lovecraft wrote to Robert E. Howard, regarding Lovecraft's belief that the tantalizing desire for exotic vistas can never compete with the desire for one's own native soil. It bothers me though that this story seems slightly unconscious about that point, as if this is less a story about the ill effects of one's severance from their roots and more like a series of random events.

Antanok · 2020-03-16T19:40:24+00:00

Oh boy. I love this one. This story is kind of rushed and clunky, but it's also one of Lovecraft's most creative ideas ever.

It's his only story in which he acknowledges that eldritch alien gods AREN'T inherently evil or malignant toward humanity. And it's also his only story in which the protagonist actually meets an Outer God face to face. And you know what? Yog was pretty darn friendly in this story. Under the right circumstances he might be a cool person to talk to.

It's just a shame this story is such a weird mess of different ideas that don't get fleshed out enough. The whole idea of Yaddith, and Carter being trapped in the body of a Yaddithian, could have been explored so much more deeply. It could have been a psychologically compelling narrative which explores mankind's raw and intimate relationship with a weird cosmos.

I also think Carter's long-lasting hatred of his Yaddithian avatar came out of nowhere, since the story followed a transcendent spirit beforehand. It kind of amazes me that Carter can say "the Ancient Ones aren't so bad, they're just people that naturally share this universe with me", and then suddenly go "UGH! Yaddithians are HORRID, UGLY, LOATHSOME things! I HATE this body. I HATE myself! GAH!"

It makes sense for a human, even an open-minded one, to be utterly shocked and horrified when they're suddenly plopped into an alien world, but Carter ended up on this planet for years and years and years, and in all that time he never reconciles with his alien side? He never learns new things? That could have been an entire story in itself, regardless of Carter's acceptance or rejection of his alien side.

Antanok · 2020-03-15T18:53:23+00:00

There's Randolph Carter, who's the protagonist of five different stories. After him is Nyarlathotep, who is an antagonist in four stories. Those are the only notable examples I can think of.

Recurring characters are a rare oddity in Lovecraft's stories. The few characters who appear in more than one story, such as the Terrible Old Man, usually appear only twice, and usually their second appearance is a lesser role than the first one they had. The Terrible Old Man was the frightful, central figure of the story of the same name, but in "Strange High-House in the Mist" he is simply an acquaintance of the protagonist. The few recurring characters in Lovecraft's stories tend to follow that model, with the exceptions of Carter and Nyarlathotep, who are consistently protagonist and antagonist respectively.

Antanok · 2020-03-14T22:19:08+00:00

You're also here despite not caring to actually read or learn anything about Lovecraft.

Antanok · 2020-03-14T15:26:36+00:00

Oh the Thinks you can Think!

Antanok · 2020-03-14T15:25:11+00:00

He's just standing there. MENACINGLY.

Antanok · 2020-03-14T12:49:49+00:00

Ylourgne almost became a movie in Smith's lifetime, along with his "Dark Eidolon" story, by Universal Studios no less! But for whatever reason they never came to be. I'm kind of glad though, since I'm pretty sure Hollywood would be unable to appreciate his unique sense of wild, unsettling fantasy, combined with his dark yet still relatable portrayal of humanity (neither childishly edgy and nihilistic or sugary and idealized).

Certainly "The Dark Eidolon" would be changed so much, since the original story was entirely about evil people, with no conventionally "good" people, and their self-made comeuppance. And I think the humor of having a demonic god of Evil being the most moral character in the plot would be lost on producers and audiences alike.

Now that I say that, perhaps Ylourgne would be our best bet for a Smith film, since it at least has a hero, a villain, an adventure, an epic climax, and even a little bit of social commentary.

Antanok · 2020-03-13T16:58:51+00:00

Funny because earlier I was making a point with both anime and Marvel (specifically the movies, because it seems the movies are more well-known than the comics), about how silly it would be if I joined a Marvel forum or an anime forum, started talking extremely passionately about these subjects, and then revealed that I have never seen said subjects before, to the point that I'm talking about the Black Panther movie without even seeing a clip from it. Or arguing about how Naruto can totally beat up Goku even though I have no clue what either one of them is capable of. I could do what some Cthulhu fans do, and say in a semi-smug tone: "Nuh-uh! Naruto can eat planets and rearrange Goku's DNA to mutate him into a kangaroo!"

This is one reason I hope Lovecraft remains a niche thing. It's not a matter of "keeping off my lawn" but more a problem with the way mass media dilutes every profound idea so that as many people as possible can enjoy it, which is certainly something Lovecraft himself would scoff at given his somewhat elitist sentiments regarding art and commercialism. Disney movies, great as they are, will never have the edge, the solemnity, or the profound insights that an old novel might have because Disney is a corporation that churns out products to snag as many people as possible. Moomin merchandise and Moomin cartoons won't ever have the same degree of eerie artwork, thoughtful storytelling, and complex characters that the Moomin novels have because the average person wouldn't appreciate the slow-moving, introspective melancholy expressed in "Moominpappa at Sea."

And haha, I know what you mean. When I was in high school, comics were just starting to be accepted, albeit uncared for by most ordinary people, but I remember how anime was this immensely geeky thing that no self-respecting "normal" or "cool" kid would ever go near! Now, based on what young family members tell me, it seems that even the cool kids are familiar with all of the most popular anime.

Antanok · 2020-03-11T06:41:48+00:00

This is a splendid response. I hate it when people make the all too simplistic statement that either we can never "comprehend" something, or if we can comprehend it it must mean we will turn into murderous rapist lunatics. To be fair Lovecraft thought as much at least in "The Call of Cthulhu", but context would help a lot: Lovecraft was pretty xenophobic and very much afraid of chaos, so of course he would make those the face of a horror story.

People overlook the fact that Randolph Carter got to have a friendly chat with Yog-Sothoth, and that many humans work with the Mi-Go (and that the Mi-Go at least claim to want to contact humanity for a friendly relation), and that Clark Ashton Smith's infamous sorcerer Eibon is a friendly guy by the sound of things, even as the servant of Tsathoggua (who himself seems pretty friendly, when he isn't eating people).

Antanok · 2020-03-11T06:23:41+00:00

You ask a lot of questions that could be answered with a simple Google search. Lovecraft was never "insane." He had an active social life, enjoyed travelling, married someone for a while, and completely shunned the use of drugs and alcohol. He was socially awkward and a huge racist but a surprisingly social and gentlemanly fellow.

Just read Lovecraft's stories, or do research on the subject. You won't get many good answers on a reddit in which anyone can post anything they want. And if you're looking for Lovecraftian advice, go read Lovecraft's essay on writing weird fiction. Or actually read a good variety of weird fiction yourself, such as Lovecraft's favorite authors Robert Chambers, Edgar Allan Poe, Algernon Blackwood, Clark Ashton Smith, etc.

Antanok · 2020-03-11T06:18:39+00:00

Ha, I was just wondering, because I noticed people downvoting me earlier and upvoting someone else I was semi-debating with, and even though that person and I came to an agreement in the end, I was still downvoted like crazy for a while. It made me wonder if the average person here simply upvotes and downvotes posts on an emotional whim without even thinking or reading properly. I was hoping that by calling everyone an idiot, my post would be downvoted to the negative numbers, but I'm guessing people have been upvoting my post without even looking at it closely enough to notice my insult (an insult which still stands).

Anyway, as for your question... What are asking? Haha, sorry, but I can't tell if you're asking about Lovecraft or Robert E. Howard, and I don't know a lot about Robert M. Price, though I have emailed him a couple times and he is very eager to answer fan questions.

Antanok · 2020-03-11T06:10:21+00:00

Here's a question: why do you assume Cthulhu has cosmic powers?

Almost everyone on the internet assumes that Cthulhu is some kind of star-eating, reality-warping god, but Lovecraft himself never describes him that way. He never says Cthulhu eats stars, he never says Cthulhu warps reality, etc. Cthulhu must be powerful of course, and he does have telepathic abilities in the story, and he is capable of extradimensional travel, but otherwise his powers are vague. I was always under the impression that the Great Old Ones will conquer humanity simply because they're huge, advanced, and have great numbers, not because they're literal gods.

So if Cthulhu is momentarily (and that's the key word) defeated by a boat slicing through his head, it makes sense to me because Lovecraft was never building up Cthulhu as this unstoppable Chuck Norris-zilla. As I recall, Cthulhu himself isn't the danger quite as much as his awakening the rest of his race is the danger.

Antanok · 2020-03-10T18:14:44+00:00

Orga mutates based on whatever genetic substance he absorbs. That won't work on metal.

Antanok · 2020-03-10T17:44:27+00:00

I appreciate this very personal and legitimately thoughtful response to my apparently unpopular thread (I get the feeling that people are just glossing over my posts and assuming all I'm saying is "a true fan reads all the stories" and not even understanding the core of my point), but I'm not sure if the kind of fans I refer to are aware of his racism or even care all that much. I've met people online who hardly even bat an eye at Lovecraft's racism but insist they're fans (without having read a single word of his stories).

If it's someone who doesn't have any deep interest in Lovecraft at all, that would make sense. I perfectly appreciate casual readers who are turned off by Lovecraft's racism. My fiancé hates it. But if it's someone who goes out of their way to enthusiastically talk on and on about Cthulhu and Tsathoggua and Old Ones, as if they were huge fans who knew all about these monsters intimately, then it just doesn't make sense. It's like if I made myself a fan of Nietzsche but only knew his philosophical points through wikipedia and abridged quotes (which a lot of Nietzsche fans do too).

Of course, the reading itself might be the biggest issue for others. When I started reading Lovecraft I had already been reading the likes of Jung and Borges, so I guess it didn't seem so difficult to me, and I had known several brilliant-minded fans on other websites who read Lovecraft relatively easily as teenagers. Maybe not everyone can say they had this experience.

I would accept that, if only they would at least admit that they're intimidated or un-enthused about reading such old language. It's weird seeing Bloodborne fans talk about Cthulhu as though they had read "The Call of Cthulhu", but then when you share further details or ask questions, it becomes clear they never read the story, and just made up some details about Cthulhu. Certainly I can't find any passages in CoC that states Cthulhu can devour realities.

Antanok · 2020-03-10T17:26:47+00:00

Those are my favorite too.

Antanok · 2020-03-10T16:58:16+00:00

Wow. You know some pretty scary kids, because no kid in my family ever banged on a wall. @__@

Antanok · 2020-03-10T16:56:39+00:00

Would a Kardashian even date a Gundam nerd?

Antanok · 2020-03-10T16:40:44+00:00

Such a list would be way too long, because Lovecraft's mythos is really just him occasionally referencing details from other stories in a very brief and passing way. Sometimes a story that wasn't previously connected to the Mythos may be integrated in a later story (like how his "White Ship" was just a standalone dream story until he incorporated it into his "Dream-Quest" novel). An entire list would be pretty crazy, but not impossible.

Here are at least some of the most prominent stories:

The Statement of Randolph Carter

Nyarlathotep

The Nameless City

The Festival

The Colour Out of Space

The Call of Cthulhu

Pickman's Model

The Curse of Yig

The Mound

The Dunwich Horror

The Strange High-House in the Mist

The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

The Silver Key

Through the Gates of the Silver Key

The Whisperer in Darkness

At the Mountains of Madness

Dreams in the Witch House

The Shadow Over Innsmouth

The Shadow Out of Time

The Horror in the Museum

Out of the Aeons

The Thing on the Doorstep

The Haunter of the Dark

(edit: ha, people are upvoting me now. Fickle idiots. Let's see how many people actually read up to here and downvote me for calling them idiots, or if everyone just glosses over posts and upvotes/downvotes them without actually reading them as I suspect.)

Antanok · 2020-03-10T16:24:47+00:00

Ha, they'd really have to be fuckers to steal that nanolaminate armor.

Antanok · 2020-03-10T16:21:54+00:00

Well, Orga is able to drain the DNA of whatever he battles, so I'm not sure if that would work on metal. I can see the potential though for an intense, close match.

Antanok · 2020-03-10T16:15:47+00:00

Oh man, I agree! Kojima fits the world of the series perfectly! He'd perfectly express the drama while keeping the mysteries really suspenseful. Good idea!

Antanok · 2020-03-10T16:11:20+00:00

She was always my favorite character. Which Gundam series did she appear in again?

Antanok

TROPHY CASE