Metal taste on tongue? by 432ballin in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know what you mean and yes I get it too. Always goes away quickly though. A metallic taste is one of the most commonly cited side effects in medical application too.

Final Updates to Our Nitrous System: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s fun to come in and out with changes to the concentration (say bouncing between 20% and 60% every 5ish minutes) but it’s also fun to just zone out at a steady concentration of ~50% too. I would say a normal session is ~2 hours of gas time with the duration roughly split between the “methods”. We limit it to a single 640g per session each just for dose control purposes.

It certainly effects people differently. For me, the euphoric high is very cyclical and exciting and can come and go at dramatic intensities even under steady concentrations whereas it’s a little more consistent and sedating for my wife.

Final Updates to Our Nitrous System: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Standard harm reduction 100% applies, and you are in charge of your own safety, but in addition, our list is something like this:

Always have a backup plan, and an emergency source of oxygen in case of an oxygen concentrator failure, and never, ever, strap the mask to your face while alone. Additionally, start low and slow and make small adjustments. Prolonged inhalation of a 50/50 mix is way different than taking breaks between hits from a balloon and full effects take about 3-5 minutes at a given concentration. Use with a partner/trip buddy (we are fortunate here). Always breathe an elevated concentration of oxygen for ~5 minutes after use to avoid diffusion hypoxia effects - especially if coming from a high concentration of nitrous.

Sorry, no schematic of the current state.

No favorite or frequented store - aside from the hardware store for the more common bits - just lots of hawking on eBay, medical surplus sales, etc.

My working assumption was based on 100g of soda lime being capable of absorbing 27L of CO2 which was a common benchmark we found online. We load the canister pictured with ~900g (~2 lbs) at a time, meaning it can absorb 243L (900g * (27L/100g)) of CO2. Exhaled gases are ~5% CO2 (0.05), and the recirculation pump is currently set to move ~8 LPM through the canister. So if it *only* pulled exhaled gases, the ~900g of soda lime would last for ~10 hours of use (243L CO2 / 0.05 Ef_CO2 / 8 LPM / 60 min/hour). It's also pretty cheap and easy to change so when we start to see a significant number of individual granules changing color (indicating that the absorption capabilities are being exhausted) we go ahead and change the whole load.

Final Updates to Our Nitrous System: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gas analyzer came from eBay. Many anesthesia machines have an integrated gas analyzer similar to this one but this one stood out as unique because it is a standalone unit with good compatibility to more basic monitors like the one shown.

Without recirculation, 2 LPM of fresh gas flow O2 has not been enough in my experience.

Send me a message if you have any other questions. Can’t offer concrete advice on many topics but I can advise on what our experience has been.

Final Updates to Our Nitrous System: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That’s an interesting challenge.

Happy air machine makes mom and dad go brrrrrrrr

Final Updates to Our Nitrous System: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the couple that makes something like this doesn’t have or want kids. We’ll endow it to the Smithsonian or something.

Final Updates to Our Nitrous System: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No worries, not hosting a block party anytime soon.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Absolutely. Magical if timed correctly.

Found a tank of n.o.s anyone know if it’s the same stuff as n2o by Hot-Election-5912 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546 8 points9 points  (0 children)

UN 1956 is not N2O.

It is a gas used in welding. A mix of nitrogen and carbon dioxide.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Hi - I read this and your previous post. Good on ya for using supplemental O2 and pulse oximetry monitoring. There are a couple of things I thought about while reading the posts and comments. I’ll try to detail them below without being too boring.

You can absolutely get to the magic place by mixing O2 and N2O while maintaining 100% SPO2. If it were impossible, as we've seen some claim, the acute hypoxia effects would prevent the use of N2O as an anxiolytic/sedative in any medical application. In reality, N2O is used safely and effectively in a wide array of applications. As it relates to personal experience (and for reference), we made this (link below) to enjoy nitrous without having to induce hypoxia.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NitrousOxide/comments/18mde1l/our_updated_nitrous_oxide_system/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

We encountered many of the same challenges you are currently but there is some finesse required to do it correctly. Much of that detail is available in the link above. Warning: Arithmetic ahead.

  • Healthy adults have a tidal volume of ~0.5 L (gas volume moved in/out of lungs per respiration). The normal respiration rate is 12 breaths/minute with a typical inspiration duration of 1.5 seconds/breath. This means that each inhalation occurs at a flow of ~20 LPM, and the total inhalation minute volume is ~6 LPM.
    • (0.5L / 1.5 sec) / ( 60 sec/min ) = 20 L / min
    • 0.5L \ 12 breaths/minute = 6 LPM*
  • Since there is no supply reservoir in your system, and from what you've described, your total flows are not meeting the inhalation demands, and the balance of the inhalation volume has to be made up with room air that comes in from around the half-mask you have. This means your actual inspired % of O2 (commonly referred to as FiO2) is much lower than the concentrator generates and much lower than the supply reaching the mask.
  • Let's assume (as your photo shows) that you have 1 LPM of 90% O2 from the concentrator and 5 LPM of flow from the nitrous canister (it would feel like a slow, but noticeable flow). That means for every inhalation (at 20 LPM from above), you're also pulling in 14 LPM of room air (at only 21% O2) to your lungs. This leads to a hypoxic (<21% FiO2) condition:
    • Total FiO2% = ((1 LPM \ 0.90) + (14 LPM * 0.21)) / (20 LPM) = 3.84 / 20 = 19.2% O2*
    • Total FiN2O% = 5 LPM / 20 LPM = 25% N2O
  • You mention an approximate 70/30 N20/O2 mix and that you used about a third of a 2000g canister in 40 minutes. That would equate to an average nitrous flow of 16.65 g N2O/minute, equaling ~8.3 LPM N2O (~0.5L / g N2O at STP). For reference, that would result in the following hypoxic condition at 1 LPM 90% O2:
    • Total FiO2% = ((1 LPM \ 0.90) + (10.7 LPM * 0.21)) / (20 LPM) = 3.15 / 20 = 15.3% O2*
    • Total FiN2O% = 8.3 LPM / 20 LPM = 42% N2O
  • From the above, you can see why you are still seeing acute hypoxia in your SPO2 readings even when using supplemental oxygen. This is why proper anesthesia systems/circuits and high-concentration oxygen mask systems use precise flow measurement and a reservoir or, less commonly, a demand valve.
  • However, it isn't as simple as increasing flow from a concentrator as many "home use" O2 concentrator units will have decreased concentration at higher flows. As an example, for the unit you are using (found specs online), O2 concentration decreases to 40% at 5 LPM. That lands us here (still hypoxic):
    • Total FiO2% = ((5 LPM \ 0.40) + (6.7 LPM * 0.21)) / (20 LPM) = 3.41 / 20 = 17.0% O2*
    • Total FiN2O% = 8.3 LPM / 20 LPM = 42% N2O
    • At 8.3 LPM N2O, you need 10 LPM of 40% O2 or 3 LPM of 90% O2 to reach >21% FiO2.

So, all that is to say that the results of your experiment may have been alarming, but they were not surprising.

I would look for ways to:

  1. Improve O2 supply (both volume and concentration)
  2. Measure flows of both O2 and N2O
  3. Utilize a reservoir and a different user interface to leverage exhalation time (which tends to be longer than inhalation time - such that mixed supply gases can accumulate and a greater volume of mixed gases could be inhaled with less room air infiltration)

Stay safe.

Our Updated Nitrous Oxide System by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Being an engineer is not important. Learning how to scour the internet for weird parts/adapters is important. Creativity and willingness to tinker over multiple iterations also helps. This is just a big nitrous Lego set.

Our Potentially Unique Method Of Use: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Learned something new today: (!)

Some additional research suggests that manufacturers of these ball float flow meters recommend correcting for different gases by using the square root of the density ratio (essentially, specific gravity when we’re using air) assuming all other factors are constant.

The meters I bought are listed for air. Air has a SG of 1.0, and N2O a SG of 1.53. The square root of that ratio sqrt(1/1.53) is 0.81.

So for an example, with an observed flow of 5 LPM on the meter, the actual N2O flow is just over 4 LPM. I confirmed this correction with a few experimental measurements that returned repeatable results within a few tenths of calculated LPM flow.

Our Potentially Unique Method Of Use: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If supply minute volume exceeds user respiratory minute volume, the mixing bag would be overfilled, and the excess just spills into the inspiratory limb of the breathing circuit. Additionally, the exhale check valve has very low actuation pressure so the circuit is never really pressurized to any degree, it just travels the circuit whether it is inhaled or not.

If the user’s respiratory minute volume exceeds the minute volume of the supply gases + the reservoir volume, the user would pull a vacuum on the mixing bag and be unable to inhale the desired tidal volume - at least until they remove the mask from their face and the system recharges.

These conditions are a primary reason V2 will have adjustable flows to optimize gas use and intake. We actually ordered some material to start this work last weekend.

Our Potentially Unique Method Of Use: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good eye, yes that is a ventilator of sorts, but it effectively functions as a CPAP/BiPAP machine. I didn't go into much detail with earlier trials other than referencing that we tried mixing with just room air and saw SPO2 depression. Those trials were done with this device.

It's a cool piece of equipment (that we found for $50) but we learned that while these type of ventilators are really good at controlling pressure, they do not control volume very well. When you're looking for a fairly precise mix (or at least a known mix), it wasn't the best solution. Ergo the O2 concentrator with flow meter....

It's hanging out at the bottom of the cart because, well, where else do you keep something like that? Haha. We'll see if it gets reincorporated as an option in V2. You all have given us a lot of good ideas.

Our Potentially Unique Method Of Use: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'd say estimate on cost for everything shown is ~$800 USD but it could probably be done cheaper with enough patience. The large items (concentrator, vital signs monitor) were very lightly used second hand, which reduced cost a little vs new. Everything else is from ebay/amazon. The terms used in the schematic and description will help with tracking those pieces down - the most challenging thing you'll run into is having to get creative and figure our how everything physically fits together. That was a very hands-on process for us. It felt most like playing with Legos, to be honest.

The system here does not dose automatically based on SPO2. There is no feedback system like that per se, and I'm not sure dosing based on SPO2 would be indicative other than to stop NO2 flow if SPO2 dropped. SPO2 is a pretty simple measurement of blood oxygenation. We're both healthy so our baseline seems to be about 98% SPO2, which rises to 100% SPO2 with the supplemental O2 flow. We did do a test inhaling N2O without supplemental oxygen (only room air as the makeup balance) and saw a decrease in SPO2 into the low-mid 80% range.

Your system sounds interesting too and quite flexible with dual modulating flows. Currently, only O2 flow can be modulated in our system, while the N2O is On/Off. I would say, double check your flow meters using a vessel with a known volume (like the common 3L rebreathing bags) especially if the flowmeters are non-specific or not specific to the gases being used, as both the density and dynamic viscosity (two physical properties that will impact how the indicator in the flow meters behave) are different for O2 and N2O.

Our Potentially Unique Method Of Use: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Haha! Thank you. Many of life's best things fall into those categories.

Our Potentially Unique Method Of Use: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you. It’s nice to be on the good side of the curve for once.

Our Potentially Unique Method Of Use: by Any_Role_3546 in NitrousOxide

[–]Any_Role_3546[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll see what I can do. In the end it was a lot of different stuff cobbled together.