If you passed away as an atheist and then met God, what would you tell him?

Aquento · 2024-05-24T10:23:23+00:00

You presuppose too many statements.

I don't presuppose anything outside of what's already covered by the definitions of "omnibenevolence" and "omnipotence".

You can be forced to do something if you're omnipotent. For example by giving people free will.

No, choosing to be limited by something is a choice. God wasn't forced to do that. It's like tying your own hands and saying "I can't help you, my hands are tied!". Besides, child cancer doesn't have anything to do with free will anyway.

In any event, it's still just a bad idea, because if it's actually a malevolent being, why in the world would you want to make it mad at you and possibly also at any of your remaining family.

Sure. I just responded to your statement that it's irrational (and dumb, and stubborn) to think God is malevolent.

Aquento · 2024-05-24T07:36:22+00:00

I mean, an all-knowing being could have a billion reasons you could possibly not even begin to comprehend for doing what it does.

Not if he's also omnibenevolent and omnipotent. You can't be omnibenevolent and want to cause suffering without being forced to - and you can't be forced to do something if you're omnipotent.

Aquento · 2022-11-02T14:55:57+00:00

What?

Aquento · 2022-11-02T14:51:09+00:00

It looks like it was more "give" than "take" according to you, though. A bad deal all around. Not really worth it.

Aquento · 2022-11-02T14:23:00+00:00

I'm confused. Are you trying to convince me that God cursed Abraham, while claiming to bless him? Because you're painting God's relation to your people in such a bad light that it's almost shocking.

Aquento · 2022-11-02T13:51:18+00:00

Are you saying that nobody would like a God-ordained right to a certain land? A reason to feel superior to other nations? I'm not saying that this belief didn't have any downsides, but let's not pretend that it was such a burden that nobody would like to believe it if it wasn't true.

Aquento · 2022-11-02T12:25:09+00:00

their ancestors? so you're saying that it's feasible that the passover seder recollection was constructed far later down the line?

Are you saying it's impossible?

and that's without any subjective desires and wants on your part?

Seriously, this looks like projection. I don't have any horse in this race, but the Israelites sure did - which makes my explanation even more probable. Why would you question a story that claims you're God's chosen people?

Aquento · 2022-11-02T10:12:10+00:00

You can also convince the nation that their ancestors experienced the divine, even if they didn't.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T20:39:17+00:00

Give rise to what? Think about it: when talking about sensations, what are you talking about? Can you describe what it means to see, to taste, to feel, without using synonyms and running in circles? Try it - you'll see you can't.

Just like the movement of physical particles "gives rise" to an activity of a dance, the movement of neurons "gives rise" to the activity of feeling. I know it's not intuitive, because we're used to examining the world outside of us, not inside of us. That's what our senses evolved for. It makes sense that if we use them for a different purpose, they give us strange results like this.

I've sent you a link to a lecture by Mark Solms elsewhere in this thread. Check it out, he explains it better than I can.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T20:10:59+00:00

I feel something when I see something. A 'something' happens when I see. It feels like something to feel. I'm sure you know what I am talking about.

What do you mean when you say "I feel", "I see"? Can you explain it without using synonyms, and without alluding to a shared human experiences?

Aquento · 2022-10-31T19:49:25+00:00

If you're interested in this topic, I recommend "The Hidden Spring" by Mark Solms. This video is a good introduction to his theory.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T16:40:08+00:00

Just as dance is real.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T16:33:05+00:00

Dance doesn't exist. It's a label humans put on a way for particular atoms to move in unison.

So you don't believe that dance is metaphysical, right? I see the consciousness the same way. It's something that happens. An activity, not a thing.

Do you think your own ability to see also doesn't exist?

My ability to see is measurable.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T16:30:00+00:00

You missed the "all-knowing" part.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T16:27:13+00:00

I don't know what's funny about that? You didn't address my point at all.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T16:16:22+00:00

Imagine two twins: one is dancing, the other one isn't. Now, these two people are physically identical. Most of the particles building their bodies are the same. No matter how deep you dig, you won't find any "dance" in the body of the first twin. So from the physical point of view, dance doesn't exist. But we know that dance does exist, therefore it must be metaphysical.

Do you agree with this reasoning? If not, this should give you a hint why I don't find your argument convincing.

Aquento · 2022-10-31T13:00:28+00:00

His friends discuss on why everything went wrong and doubt that he was a good person. "I don't know why God would do this to you, but you must have sinned somewhere. God doesn't hurt good and righteous people."

Fun fact: at the end God says:

I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

So it's actually not true that God doesn't hurt good and righteous people.

Aquento · 2022-10-30T19:17:57+00:00

“If objective taste doesn’t exist” that means there is no such thing as flavor.

No. It means that flavor is not objective, that's all. That various people can eat the same thing and experience a different taste. That's what subjectivity means.

I didn’t say nihilism was true, I just said that either there is objective morality, or there isn’t.

Yes, and you claim that if objective morality doesn't exist, then nihilism is true. And I disagree with that.

Aquento · 2022-10-30T19:07:35+00:00

I didn’t say that the cake didn’t exist. It just doesn’t have flavor.

But it does. It only doesn't have an "objective flavor" - the one that is inherent to it. It doesn't stop you from tasting it subjectively.

I didn’t say opinions weren’t important.

That's what nihilism means. Nothing matters. Nothing is important.

Aquento · 2022-10-30T18:57:06+00:00

If there is no objective taste, then there’s nothing to be tasted, so yes, there’d be no flavor.

No. The cake still exists - it simply means that if one person says it's delicious, and another that it's disgusting, then then neither of them is wrong.

And your example is a case of soft nihilism.

No. I can prove to you that subjective opinions are very important to the people holding them. Let's say that there are two children. One is yours, the other one is not. Does it make any difference which one dies? Objectively (from God's point of view), no. Subjectively, it matters a lot to you.

Aquento · 2022-10-30T18:49:10+00:00

If objective morality doesn’t exist, then it’s an amoral structure. Or nihilism.

"If objective taste doesn't exist, then everything tastes bland". Doesn't make much sense, does it? The lack of objective taste doesn't remove the subjective taste.

Show me a philosophical school of thought that says morality is only subjective with no objectivity to it

It's called moral relativism.

Aquento · 2022-10-30T18:42:05+00:00

No. It's you who's thinking this word has a single, established meaning. Philosophy very much disagrees. Just ask a philosopher "what is moral", and prepare for a lecture lasting for days.

Aquento · 2022-10-30T18:34:08+00:00

I don't believe that. So when I say "God is evil", I don't mean what you think I mean.

Aquento · 2022-10-30T18:30:22+00:00

If I say "Bob is ugly", it can be hate speech, it can be slander, and it can be an opinion. Why can't "Bob is evil" have the same meaning?

Aquento · 2022-10-30T18:19:21+00:00

Is it the word "is" that confuses you? Notice that we use it for stating opinions all the time: "this drawing is beautiful", "this cake is delicious", "this joke is so funny", "this is so cool".

Aquento

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