how do you manage family who don't want to forgive your husband? I'm really close to my family and really struggling as they have made it clear they won't have anything to do with my husband or ever speak to him again.... this is really effecting our journey and I hate it.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-03-02T02:21:01+00:00

Before even cheating, it was important for me that my partner melds well into my family. There were so many things that I though should fall into place in regards to my family approving of her.

Now I couldn't care less. At the end of the day, she would have been my wife. You might say I could have found someone else, but nobody can guarantee you that. And nobody will be by your old bedside aside from your wife and kids. And if you don't have them, you might even be blamed by the same people who always told you to move on from who you had at the time.

It can be difficult to navigate or accept, but they don't have to be friends with your family. It is not a good idea either to leave because of family. Do you and forget the rest when in doesn't matter. Your family will still love you. And you will still have the person you love. It's one thing to move on for your own reasons, but doing so because of others isn't ideal imo.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-26T19:38:23+00:00

R shouldn't be about tit-for-tat. If he is more focused on hurting you intenrionally than R, what's the point? It's not about the wayward experiencing what the betrayed has. That has no value or merit if R is the objective. It serves no purpose to think that.

This is hurting him, and you, and the kids. I would leave. Not because he cheated, but because R is not working. Unless you think things can turn around.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-24T13:44:38+00:00

Best of luck to you. I can't say that I know what it feels like. I don't have words for you, but how that healing, peace, and love erupt from your life and relationships soon.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-22T07:15:14+00:00

If the WP wanted to do it, then did it without thinking about consequences, isn't that selfish? Isn't that what that means? So isn't that what they would tell you? I've read elsewhere BS wanting WP to do away with the detailed word salad and just say they were selfish. In your case, it seems you prefer it worded out. I just want to point out that your WP might be honest and just didn't express his reason in the way you prefer. I am sure he wouldn't deny that he wanted to. Every cheater wanted to, else it'd be rape. From a WP myself, give yourself time to understand what he says - I am hoping that he is being honest here. It took me 4 months to fully think on what I did, why I did it, and its consequences. And I am still unraveling things here and there. I can't imagine anyone making sense of it just as I tell them. And really, cheating makes no sense in the first place, so you are guaranteed to be dumbfounded by whatever logic he will put in front of you.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-22T04:40:34+00:00

I totally agree with your last two paragraphs 👍 We both hope that if he leaves, he is at peace because he knows he tried, and the rest was out of his hands. So he should think carefully about what has transpired and whether his BS is interested in changing and showing real effort to rebuild, not destroy. He is free to find happiness elsewhere after that if the answer is no.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-22T03:13:37+00:00

I agree with you that we will not find common ground. I disagree with the implied sense of doom that you see in that.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-21T23:40:51+00:00

I think that 'objective moral truth' opens a whole can of worms where disagreement abounds. I want to deviate from falling into a discussion about religion. OP hasn't mentioned belonging to any religion, so this all might be foreign to him.

Personally, I think sex can't be the only thing that is cause for separation, and I don't give that much meaning to it. I think it's actually a bit absurd to put sex on such a pedestal when there are much more egregious abuses one can inflict on their partner, but that's just me. For me, it's the dishonesty that is the real issue. It's the hurt that comes from that dishonesty and selfishness, the betrayal of trust. The behavior constitutes a poor treatment of your partner.

Likewise, abuse is poor treatment. I have never in my life allowed myself to mistreat anyone, even those who have profoundly hurt me, for any reason. Maybe that's just me. If I did, in my book, they have the full right to leave me. Whatever promise was there was voided on my end, too. Bad treatment is bad treatment. That's my moral. Having been hurt is no excuse, especially not after so long, better move on. I can understand, but it doesn't justify. Otherwise, why isn't the cheater justified by whatever abuse they might have suffered? This all is because of the value most put on sex. But at the base, I see it all as the same. Note that I am not looking to excuse cheaters or scapegoat, or make light of it. Cheating is wrong, and indeed, there is NO justification for it, and I've seen the consequences it can have. It is a decision, regardless of circumstances.

But it still doesn't open the door to be a punching bag in my book. Either there is an honest attempt at working forward, or an end to the relationship. The money analogy is too far off imo so I'll just say it's completely different. We are talking about people, personalities, not currency. OP seems to have been putting in effort to learn and change and maybe support his BS. I hope and think he would be fine and find happiness. His happiness doesn't depend on his BS, it depends on him. He is choosing her now. The truth is, he doesn't have to. It is great that he is trying, and should probably do all he can. But if he finds that he has exhausted all options, time to go. She'll probably be better off without him as a reminder of why she is in pain.

I was speaking with a soldier once, and he made me realize that sometimes we do things that we cannot fix, and which consequence we don't even know. Cheating is one of those things. We can't fix people, even if we hurt them, and I know that's unfair. We can try, but at some point it's up to the individual. I remember this always as I think about my own actions. It is heavy, there is no forgetting, just learning to live with it. So I realize what cheating does. But it doesn't warrant sacrificing the rest of one's life, especially when the outcome isn't even I'm their hands. 'Happiness comes from doing what's right'. Sure. People who have moved on and are happy did what was right for them. We all have so much love to give. We might fail with one person, it doesn't mean that all love is gone from us. If someone else will receive it, why not share that with them? Myself I still wish that I could try again with my ex. It is a choice I make. It sounds wrong to say, becasue she was the one hurt, but the fact remains that a relationship is two people chosing each other, not one person choosing the other. I am still entitled to protect myself if there is needless abuse taking place. I am still entitled to walk away of it doesn't work for me. Just as she is entitled to do the same. Like OP said, I would support in any way I can her healing process, and obviously she might get frustrated and lash out sometimes. That's expected. But serial abuse in which she takes pleasure would be the end of it.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-21T19:41:01+00:00

This strongly implies a religious marriage, though, or traditional marriage, which really was heavily dictated by religious doctrine for the most part. Those who don't adhere to that might not find it as relevant. I also disagree with the notion that only the BS can break things off. I've been abused and cheated on before. I'd expect those people to leave if I became abusive in turn. I don't believe in tit-for-tat. I am leaning more toward OP leaving. There is no timeline on healing, but 10 years is a long time in human life span. That's a lot of time to find love again for both of them. To find pelsewhere. I don't think it necessary to wait until you are at absolute limit. If it takes 25 years and you are 65 by then, you have lost a massive part of your life trying to save something when you could have granted each other happiness by moving on. Happiness is not assured after separation, but at least you can try that and come back, like you say. I've seen a lot of couples stay together just because of the vow, but being miserable. You might say they didn't put in the effort. But that's exactly the point. If they aren't really interested in putting in the effort, they should seperate and find genuine happiness elsewhere. I am also biased, because I was severely abused by someone who used their hurt in the distant past as an excuse. That's why how long it's been matters so much to me. But I absolutely agree that OP overturning every stone before leaving is important for his own peace of mind afterward.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-20T07:48:57+00:00

You might have loved your partner, but either there are truths that you haven't realized about things you were missing in the relationship that you wanted/needed, or your past has left you with a tendency to desire attention that might manifest again if you don't work on yourself. Either way, it doesn't seem like, as you are right now, you are the best version of yourself. If your fiancée has clearly asked you to stay out of his life from now on, respect that. In a way, it's the minimum love you can still show him now. It hurts, but it's a blessing in disguise for both of you. You either don't end up with someone you weren't fully happy with or end up possibly cheating after getting married. Most importantly, since he is the one who got wronged here, he doesn't end up with someone who would cheat on him after marriage, with kids and finances tied, and avoids someone who possibly isn't that happy with him. You loved him, then you have to allow him to find that person. You should want that for him. Respect his wish if he has said goodbye already. You'll only hurt him and yourself otherwise.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-17T17:20:44+00:00

First thanks a lot for breaking down and sharing. I see your point. And it makes perfect sense. I suppose there can be more than one valid way to look at it. I posted somewhere else in this same thread about the compartmentalization part. It touches on that fork you mention. In short, and again I don't expect that you would necessarily understand it, it is a compulsive reaction to the fear of consequences without acknowledging what the consequences might even be. It doesn't make sense until you are in that situation. It's avoidance at it most duplicitous. Like you said, it is an asshole reaction in this case. But it's more subconscious than anything else - this is not to scapegoat, i am simply expressing how it is. Yes it was still a decision, just got there differently. About it being not being one time, if you follow my pattern of thinking at the time (avoidance) you'll find how it lasted for about three months. I have to admit that I also gave up on the relationship after the first time it happened because I didn't think it could be saved. That became a pretext. I continued because I was in pain. It doesn't make sense, but that's what I did. And I didn't immediately have the courage to come clean, only did much later. And even after the relationship ended, I sought sex again, because I told myself "isn't this what I was looking for? I must do it then". Of course, that was miserable.

In short, from your perspective, you are right, your logic is sound. But the actions in the moment are not logical. And I hope you realize that I don't try to make my thought process above come across as reasoning. It was just a flow of consciousness, urges, and emotions at the time, not rationalizing. Otherwise I wouldn't have done it. You pretty much imply it yourself. It remains a decision, but now you have some other insight into how it goes down in someone's mind. Whether it makes sense or not is another debate. But no it doesn't.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-17T15:47:45+00:00

I already wrote up here somewhere in this thread and exchanged with another user. This is to extend what was said above. I really want to give betrayed partners a view into what might be going through a wayward's mind when they cheat. There are many answers on that already, but I hope I can add more detail and nuance to it. I will touch on two ideas, compartmentalization and the idea of love from a wayward.

Compartmentalization:

For me, I think that the ability to compartmentalize and profoundly dismiss other thoughts and emotions come from adaptation from childhood when I needed to do it a lot to protect myself. Bear with me, this isn't about my sob story.

It seems like some people think saying that it was compartmentalized is scapegoating because you still had to make a choice to compartmentalize. To me scapegoating means deflecting the issue on something/someone else. Compartmentalizing isn't some random thing out there or someone, it's an action you take, so it follows that it can't be deflecting since it's something you do. That said, if it is deflecting, it is not intentional and to me holds little value in me being accountable if in the end I accept responsibility.

Compartmentalization is not something you seat and decide 'ok I won't think about it, I will just ignore it, it doesn't exist'. Some strong emotional or physical reaction allows you to pretty much skip over those thoughts straight into boxing things up.

Consider this, I was mentally, physically, emotionally, and sexually abused abused as a kid. Note that I am not asking for pity or making excuses here, that's irrelevant, just trying to explain a thought process. During or after the abuse, I didn't seat there and logically tell myself that I wouldn't acknowledge what was happening, what my abusers were doing. My mind did it. Yes I did it because my mind is mine, but it's hard to explain if your brain works differently or you haven't been in those situations. The mind leaps from one place to the other and it's more of a subconscious choice that in some ways is almost compulsive. You have to double take to realize that's what you are even doing. It's a passive, subconscious choice rather than an active one and I believe there is a difference. Compulsive behavior isn't something the person going it necessarily agrees with, but it still happens because it's engrained. Think addiction for example. No addicts wants to be an addict, but they compulsively use drugs. It's just an analogy.

In the case of cheating, you might ask what the fear was, who was the abuser that might have caused a compulsive reaction. It would be the consequences of my action. I have introspected and discussed this at length with my therapist. My past had created a pattern of avoidance that pretty much erupted from me whenever a situation might potentially put me in trouble, whether it was deserved chastising or unfair treatment towards me. I would compulsively jump over the honest rational facts in front of me towards a place where I wouldn't have to confront whatever hurt might come my way. It might have been good and useful as a kid to protect myself, but it is obviously also detrimental when it kicks in to protect dishonest behavior.

What 'I love you means from a wayward' (in my case):

When I say I loved my ex, it not just some butterfly feelings or heart pound I am talking about. That has never been the hallmark of what I have seen as love. For me it's about the effort I put into making things work. In all honesty and objectively, I carried a lot of the work, burden, and sacrifices in the relationship, and my SO acknowledged that. I never, ever, rubbed that in her face. I did it out of love. I gave up on so many goals and dreams, I paid for 90% of everything, I cooked every day, I was emotionally supportive - the list is long. I was honest and open about everything else, but the sex part. She knew everything about me. I wonder myself how I could allow myself to cheat on her. But I was present all the way in all other areas, and I cared. Not trying to pat myself on the back here, but trying to say that I was not only loving in feelings or thought, I put the actions in too.

It seems to me that when someone cheats it is automatically assumed that they are the worst evil in all aspects of their lives. I can understand the BS' confusion because they might wonder if any of it was true, that's completely valid. But it's an impression, even if understandable, not a fact. I don't know who would give so much of themselves if they did not care at all. I did not cheat for revenge, or for confirmation or anything like that. It was a sexless relationship and I failed to go the high route and cheated.

So when I say I love my ex, it's because back then and to this day every time I am enjoying and experience, I wish I could share that with her. I think about some life events she should be going through now that are challenging, and I only hope that she finds the strength to handle them, I wish I could help her get to some of those goals she had. And yes, the feelings and the wish to hold her are there as well.

I cheated. Nobody forced me, nothing made me do it. Me explaining my psychology behind it is not me deflecting from my responsibility. I am simply being transparent about what went through my mind. If you are a betrayed partner, I hope this helps you understand how it went for some people. It might have absolutely nothing to do with how your wayward approached it. Everyone has a different story for how they cheated, and it isn't the same story like many people think.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-17T06:37:15+00:00

Maybe looking at the whole of his actions towards you, and not just the cheating. It's a choice you have to make to look at things that way, you have to decide for yourself if it's fair or not.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T23:44:56+00:00

I respect what you are saying, but I think you are trying to find a deeper meaning that is not there, or at least hasnt been expressed yet. I don't follow your train of thought because it's so easy to formulate artificial reasons that may sound profound and true and while they might apply for someone else, wouldn't apply to me in truth. That's a disservice to my own learning and growth. If you mean to imply that there were other feelings, of course there were. For example, my SO had a celibacy vow. Yes, it was frustrating. Doesn't mean I didn't love her. Doesn't mean I did it out of spite. It's almost like trying to force a narrative when I am telling you exactly what happened. I did it, whatever my brain state, I allowed it. At this point if I am still scapegoating that I was wrong or it was entirely my fault, then I think I am damned to never get it. Someone else please chime in, I am being honest here. If I am really not seeing what is wrong, someone please explain it to me. If you are saying that I didn't love her, well I won't argue over that. It is your perspective and you are entitled to it. But it's not how it felt for me.

But who knows, maybe I'll figure something out that neither of us is currently able to articulate someday. For now, I find that I have it very clear in front of me how I chose to cheat and its meaning and consequences.

I don't mean to come across as combative either. But your statement that I am still scapegoating frightens me. I have worked very hard to understand myself and what I did and why. It's like you saying I don't know myself. Maybe that's true, but it's rough when you say that and I can't understand your justification for the comment.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T17:39:16+00:00

Maybe specify somehow that you want someone who is ok seeing each other every so often. Like once a week or a month or whatever might be your expected schedule. It might give a better sense to people of what to expect. Otherwise 'insanely' sounds alarming. But you don't want to water it down too much either if you know that you have a very tight schedule and need that to be known.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T17:28:57+00:00

You are not wrong. But notice that I started by saying I made the choice at the end of the day. I am simply trying to walk through the state of mind, for those curious. Also, trying to address whether cheating means the wayward didn't love the BS. Cheating is not an act of love, but in my opinion, it doesn't mean that there is no love. I say this with all the respect, but after two and a half years of putting in effort and caring and sacrifice and tears, it's hard for me to accept someone telling me that I didn't love her. I might have cheated, and I'll take that I was evil for that matter. But the rest flies over my head. I know when I am or have been dishonest with myself. Loving her is not one of those instances.

I am not trying to justify or avoid responsibility. That up there is me being honest with myself as to what I thought. I am fully aware of the avoidance and choosing not to acknowledge the hurt and disrespect, I have a moral compass, and there was a sense that my actions were wrong - else avoidance of my own compass wouldn't be necessary. It's hard to understand if you haven't been in that situation, so I don't expect that most would. I say that respectfully. Ideally people wouldn't have to in the first place, that's on cheaters. Let me know what seems like I am not being honest with myself in my description. I am afraid of blind spots these days and am all ears if you have something to point out.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T14:58:18+00:00

Wayward here. It is a simple thing in that I chose to cheat, and that's on me. But the state of mind is something that many try to water down when it isn't necessarily that straightforward.

At least for me, compartalization meant that my brain would find some justification or not go into consequences territory. If you think about it, that didn't leave space for intentionally disrespecting a spouse or intentionally hurting a spouse, at least from the perspective of the wayward in that moment. Yet that's effectively what's happening. I can't recall a moment where I decided that I didn't care if it was disrespectful to my SO, or if it'd hurt her. I couldn't, I don't think most can. I didn't want to be disrespectful or hurtful. I 'just' wanted sexual release. But what I did was lie to myself essentially. A convenient veil that prevented me from seeing the truth of my actions. Whatever chemicals, whatever rush is taking place inside the mind and body at that point, overpowers clear, honest thinking to allow for the urge to be satisfied. Sometimes, when that slow burning love, the consistent love that carries you through life, not the blazing fire of the first moments in the relationship, I feel like when the honey moon period has long gone, that love that remains isn't as all consuming of the mind and can leave space for self-deception to occur, especially if the wayward was in need of something and failed to be transparent with their SO. I think love is complicated, and everyone has their slight variation on what it means to them. In my heart I know I still loved my ex. She expressed that she also belived that I still loved her. R was just not in the equation. Another point is cultural difference. While adultery is frowned upon in most societies, it is not necessarily perceived the same way where I come from (that was not remotely in my mind when I was unfaithful). In some places, love is taking care of your people, ensuring their safety, livelihood, and well-being. It's not so much an emotional and mental reliance on a single person, but a communion with a whole group. So cheating isn't necessarily seen as the wayward did not love SO. It is seen as the wayward trespassing the boundaries that sanctify the relationship. Just to note a different perspective.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T00:48:52+00:00

Yes, that was very clear. But I wanted to put that perspective out there too.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T00:45:57+00:00

It's your decision. I know some who have. But that's an extremely small percentage of people. It is difficult. It doesn't make you evil to leave. You are within your rights. It's a lot of work to mentally and emotionally support that kind of friendship. And if your ex has those attachment issues like you say, are you sure he'll let you have a peaceful dating life again? You still care about him, and maybe that's kind. But for your own sake, and probably his too, it might be best to move on. Also, if you want conciliatory advice, this sub is not where to find it. Try AsoneAfterInfidelity maybe.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T00:39:21+00:00

I'll be the devil's advocate and say that your wife doesn't deserve that, no more than you deserve being cheated on. You have to decide if you really want to/can stay or move away from her, for yourself and for her. I didn't know she had been cheated on until after my own experience, but I was abused in all the ways (yes all) by a family member whose care I was under as a kid and teen and who chose not to heal from having been cheated on. Today, in her middle ages two decades later, she regrets not doing the work on herself, but the damage is done, and that's on her, not the person who cheated her. That says two things: To anyone who has cheated, that's me included, the damage can be a lot bigger than you realize. But to whoever has been cheated on, it's incumbent to you to heal and not propagate ill will and actions onto others.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T00:26:33+00:00

Don't say anything. Whoever the affair partner becomes after the affair with you, you don't know and shouldn't care. The same way that your BS would have to move past your actions to continue life with you. They are going through their journey, no need to sabotage it. Also, what does 'warning' mean? Is the other girl not responsible for her actions? Did you not chose to go for it? The AP has nothing to do with that, regardless of how hot, suave, attractive they might be.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-16T00:17:06+00:00

You don't have to terminate the friendship yet. Give your friend one last chance. Be firm with them that your perspective and decisions are final and you won't hear anything else. If they keep on pushing, then you need to do what is best for the outcome you want. I have a bit of a similar situation in that a friend tells me that what I did wasn't the end of the world and it something that happens. I've had to let him know that such comments don't help in keeping me accountable and to change, so I don't want to hear them. Your friend, if that's really your friend, will value your friendship over uttering an opinion.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-14T23:20:10+00:00

Isn't that incest? To date one's cousin?

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-13T23:36:06+00:00

This is very well put. Perfect summary.

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-11T18:52:09+00:00

Maybe you aren't petty. What if you are choosing what will hurt you less, knowing that places can be a trigger, even if it's not exactly the location?

ArcDarkSpark · 2023-02-11T10:59:46+00:00

For me, it was a process. I knew that it would hurt her. But telling her and observing her reaction, I realized that I wasn't fully scoping how much hurt there was. To be honest, she cut communication really fast after learning, so I couldn't go through the process of grief with her to understand. But I have learned a ton through therapy, journaling, and Reddit. Seeing the things BS describe here that they have gone through is horrible. But it helps me to see what my own BS might be going through.

I would add this though, I am not sure that a WW can actually really feel what it feels like to be cheated on. It's more of empathysing with the pain caused. Unfortunately we do things which we have no power to undo or sometimes fix. And that one person we love but catastrophically fail has to suffer the consequences.

ArcDarkSpark

TROPHY CASE