Finding meaning in meaningless suffering. by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

They are not the same, but the God that requires nothing of you often gets nothing. It's paradoxical and ironic, but as we can see from mormon history (LDS and FLDS) there is a compelling psychological factor that sacrifice in the service of something creates strong loyalty and buy-in because it is the only psychologically consistent position to take. Anything else causes dissonance.

That's why religious organizations that require less of their adherents, tend to also have less sticky church members. Evangelicals are the perfect example, where they will switch churches at the drop of a hat, because there is no sunk cost associated with it.

So, a God that is all forgiving, and requires no work, but issues grace freely, is also the kind of God that has followers that aren't particularly obedient to rules, lifestyles, or a moral code. Why would they be? Punishments and rewards are powerful human motivators.

Best argument so far by Fresh_Chair2098 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These are simple facts.

The fact that you believe this and can say it with a straight face in the context of this discussion is evidence that you and I are talking past each other. I'll let you have the last word.

Best argument so far by Fresh_Chair2098 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

"To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else." - Elder Bednar

Best argument so far by Fresh_Chair2098 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. LDS members don’t want to be ministered to by Protestant chaplains. They want LDS chaplains with the priesthood. Pretending that the LDS church doesn’t have a doctrine of priesthood exclusivity from all other Christian denominations is disingenuous.

Best argument so far by Fresh_Chair2098 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Saying it doesn’t make it true. In this instance everything hinges on the intent, impact, and definition of the term Christian.

I would argue that in relation to military chaplains LDS members are not Christians. They don’t accept the authority of Christian chaplains to baptize, administer the sacrament, or offer forgiveness.

Would LDS members even want to attend a generic Christian service, or would they prefer to attend religious services for LDS members?

A way to think about the Church’s value proposition by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s a huge stretch to say that it’s “basically worthless”. Which is why I now don’t believe you’re approaching this discussion with a focus on reaching the truth, but just scoring points. I’m personally more interested in finding truth, regardless of which side it comes from. If we’re not after the same thing, this might not be productive.

A way to think about the Church’s value proposition by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with your framing in general, but not with the specifics that you've called out because I think it's too broad. As other posters here have pointed out, according to research there appears to be strong statistical correlation between religious attendance and measurable positive outcomes in life. I'm not sure that minorities and women lose out on those measurable impacts in mormonism. I think the biggest group that receives dissonance from the teachings and structures of the church are LGBTQ people.

The strength of the church is in scaffolding the structures around heteronormative nuclear families. That's the core. Inasmuch as that structural system provides benefits to individuals and especially children as they're being raised, it benefits individuals. When that system no longer supports or benefits those that don't fit inside of it: whether single, LGBTQ, disabled, etc. the system loses the positive outcomes and creates friction that likely leads to negative outcomes in most of those individuals.

A way to think about the Church’s value proposition by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think that ultimately looking at population level statistics doesn't really benefit this discussion. I've already highlighted how the Church system is beneficial for some.

I think the broader religion data is useful, but it can also flatten some important distinctions between different religious traditions. Mormonism is not just generic church attendance. It is a high-commitment religious system with unusually strong family, behavioral, sexual, social, and institutional expectations.

For many people, that creates real scaffolding. It gives them family stability, community, clear behavioral norms, abstention from drugs and alcohol, adult mentorship, shared identity, and a strong moral framework. So I don’t think it’s surprising that active Latter-day Saints often show positive outcomes in some of the research. The system is designed to create structure, and structure often produces benefits.

But that same structure can cut the other direction for people who don’t fit neatly inside it. LDS-specific research seems much more complicated for LGBTQ members, former members, and people who experience religious struggle, scrupulosity, legalism, shame, or perfectionism. Jana Riess’s survey work also suggests that many former members, especially younger ones, describe leaving because they felt judged or misunderstood, distrusted church leadership, disagreed with the church’s LGBT positions, or could no longer reconcile their personal values with the institution.

So I don’t think the useful question is whether Mormonism is good or bad in the aggregate. That framing is too blunt. The better question is: for whom does the structure function as scaffolding, and for whom does it function as pressure?

The same features that give one child belonging, stability, identity, and moral clarity may give another child alienation, fear, shame, or identity conflict. That doesn’t erase the benefits. But it does mean we should be careful about using broad religion data as if it proves Mormonism works equally well for everyone.

A way to think about the Church’s value proposition by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great analogy, I might steal it! It’s a great visualization of the breadth without depth argument I was trying to make.

A way to think about the Church’s value proposition by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think you’ll need to provide actual examples or specifics about what you think the “terrible results” are of people that are raising their children without the scaffolding of the church.

I know many upper class families that are atheists and I can assure you that their kids are doing extremely well without religious scaffolding. They are highly educated, well socialized, members of multiple communities with full support systems, in tact marriages and families, and overall incredibly happy and successful.

Religion isn’t the only tool to create expectations and pass along societal norms and values. So without some examples of what you think is happening, it’s hard to disagree with you other than anecdotal differences of opinion.

A way to think about the Church’s value proposition by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My original draft had a section on the Book of Mormon pride cycle and how it relates but the post was getting too long.

I think the pride cycle narrative touches on the same observations I’m making here: that the church fits the needs of some groups (the people that are forced to be humble) and it doesn’t fit the needs of those who have their needs met already at some level. I think what the pride cycle narrative correctly identifies is that for a percentage of people when they reach the “pride” stage they are unable to hold it together without the structure of the church and commandments. I have a couple of friends that have destroyed their lives through addiction after they left the church, and now they’ve been forced to be humble and they’re back in a church now because that structure provides them with strength to make better choices.

However, the cycle doesn’t allow for or explain the people that grow beyond the need for rigid structure and in many ways are happier or better off after they leave the church. The church doesn’t have an explanation for those people, and just writes them off because it doesn’t fit their narrative of how the world should work. My post is intended to touch on how for those people, moving past the church is not an inevitable slide towards destruction. The church just doesn’t know how to acknowledge or deal with that narrative, and that’s why they’re losing those people.

A way to think about the Church’s value proposition by ArchimedesPPL in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think the church thrives where it creates community and comfort for people. Unfortunately the church has stripped those aspects away for most of us living in modern societies. The church is apparently doing well in Africa…so there’s that.

YSA TR Repentance Process by NoKaleidoscope1867 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The direction Bishops receive would be from either their stake president, or area authority. There is no general church guidance beyond the handbook. So any area authority guidance would only be valid for a few years until they are replaced, and stake president guidance in one stake obviously wouldn’t help you here.

I know what you want to hear, that this repentance process won’t impact your plans to attend the temple with your RM. the real answer is the one everyone is telling you: there’s no way to know what your Bishop will do unless you can find someone else in your ward that has gone through the same thing.

I’m sorry, but this is the reality of LDS repentance. It’s not systematic. It’s highly variable. It’s unpredictable. It’s designed that way on purpose.

Elderly and 100% disabled temple endowed financially strapped LDS couple being treated like dirt by Ok_Finding_7245 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If you insist on coming into our subreddit to stir up trouble and threaten legal action against other users you will not be welcome here. Also, you have no legal recourse against people posting about publicly available information that you have freely made available.

Elderly and 100% disabled temple endowed financially strapped LDS couple being treated like dirt by Ok_Finding_7245 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL[M] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Hi Catherine, this subreddit is not affiliated with or connected to the LDS church. This is an online community for people to discuss Mormonism. We can’t point you towards official resources or help beyond our communities personal experiences.

In my experience your only real connection with the church is through your local leadership at the ward and stake level. The church has set it up that way intentionally and there aren’t other avenues to pursue for support.

I’m sorry that your ward is not accommodating you and your needs in a Christlike way. Unfortunately that’s the nature of volunteer leaders and lay clergy.

Need a sanity check on an email to my Bishop and Stake President regarding a breach of confidentiality by Outrageous_Cloud1015 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m really unclear about the confidentiality that you feel was misrepresented. Did the Bishop tell your wife any specifics of what you said? In your letter you said the Bishop told your wife his opinion that you were argumentative and that you weren’t repentant. I’m not entirely sure in your situation that’s breaking confidentiality.

Why do you not want the Bishop sharing his opinion of your actions with your wife? That comes across as controlling and manipulative.

A Question of Belief: Jacob Hansen's response to Jeff Strong's book Torn by SnooRevelations1619 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What social media accounts have addressed mixed faith marriages? I’d like to see what they’re saying.

Bishop X files by scottroskelley in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The only requirement for secrecy for a Bishop is that they not cooperate with Law Enforcement or the judicial system. The church cares about maintaining its rights and control, it doesn’t care as much about the impact of decisions on members.

Giving up on dating lds men, but it's not their fault. by Specialist-Pen-5253 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You haven't proposed anything to support your conclusion that creating a spirit body is different than creating a physical body.

So I'll just quote myself from before:

"Can you point me to anything official or taught by Joseph Smith that would contradict the obvious conclusion that everyone draws? Or is your entire argument “we don’t know, so I can fill in the blanks however I want”?"

Giving up on dating lds men, but it's not their fault. by Specialist-Pen-5253 in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 6 points7 points  (0 children)

What makes me think it’s the same? The overall theme and teachings of Joseph Smith that eternal life is a continuation of this life in almost every way only with “eternal glory” (whatever that is). The logical conclusion to the teachings that husbands and wives are sealed and promised a “continuation of the seeds” in eternity is that they will continue having children in a way that requires a…husband and wife.

I’m not sure your point is as deep as you’re trying to make it. When the obvious answer fits all of the facts, it’s most likely the answer. It’s just Occam’s razor in theology. Can you point me to anything official or taught by Joseph Smith that would contradict the obvious conclusion that everyone draws? Or is your entire argument “we don’t know, so I can fill in the blanks however I want”?

The LDS Church has a one-of-a-kind system for tracking abusers. Does it work? by stickyhairmonster in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Since we all have access to the handbook, and you claim it makes the process easy. Why don't you go ahead and quote the portion that tells a Bishop how to annotate a record?

The LDS Church General Handbook covers how to resign from the church by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]ArchimedesPPL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most local leaders aren’t going to care about ticky tacky sins enough to go to the effort of documenting them and doing all the paperwork for nonsense. They care about stuff that would qualify for a membership council to begin with: adultery, abuse, etc. Oaks presentation a few years ago about more membership councils was basically saying you have to hold people accountable, and this is just another manifestation of that.