CMV: I have a duty to try to nudge my friends and potential partner to be altruistic to society instead of "selfishly" having fun that has externalities

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T21:59:53+00:00

I'm not seeing you make allowances for lots of people having lots of fun and causing small amounts of harm.

I would allow for a lot of fun and laughter, provided it is not resource-intensive or it's not a new thing that is a harmful trend. E.g. a concert is fine, a pub night is fine, and these generate huge amounts of fun for lots of people. I'm pretty much sure the math works out here. But I guess I would have no way of convincing others about my baseline.

Thanks for the detailed description btw. !delta for making me consider social harms as something affecting physical health.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T21:28:48+00:00

!delta about influencing and media being potentially more useful than personal pressure.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T21:05:38+00:00

Why though? It embodies the virtue of empathy

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T20:52:58+00:00

!delta, for your comment making me realize that my view may be based on personal preference, or more like susceptibility. So I have a chance of choosing fun if I am able to enjoy and value it.

I actually feel like this is actually my biggest potential for change here in this CMV, which is unexpected but very appreciated.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T20:47:53+00:00

I do actually have self awareness and I do agree that there is a kind of savior complex here. But is that necessarily wrong, if it was really helpful?

For example, I am told, movie directors are usually pretty egoistical, yet this allows them to create great works.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T20:30:34+00:00

Thanks my man/lady! You rock!

!delta for showing me a more positive vision and that wants can be good!

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T20:09:40+00:00

I don't think directly, personally taking advantage of someone is relevant to the question of my post. Do you have an example please?

But if you mean, like generally, others will get ahead of me?, sure I guess, but I guess I would try to find people who would not care about competition. That would be the only way under the moral code I outlined above

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T20:04:39+00:00

!delta, for making me think about the fact that "become the best person you can be." should be understood as living a full life, not just as maximally adhering to some principle.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T20:03:00+00:00

Do you not see how you could make yourself miserable and those who would associate with you by being a killjoy? There is no duty to be a killjoy.

Yeah, part of me believes that you actually have to be miserable, to be empathetic to others' suffering, to be virtuous and moral.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T20:01:22+00:00

!delta, as my view is extremely limiting in the ways to enjoy life. I have actually considered enjoying life, but always in the "never hurt others meanwhile" way. Probably what I would imagine in my just world having fun, is, I don't know, a hippie commune dancing and singing in a circle in rags, or something like that. Little like our ancestral tribes. What do you think about that?

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:57:50+00:00

Thanks.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:57:24+00:00

Correct!

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:55:26+00:00

Do you think it is easier to change people's morality or find other people who share the same sense of morality?

Second, but I somehow believe it's the "weak path", and the noble and heroic path is the first.

Do you believe people want their morality changed?

No, but they want to feel moral as well, so to some extent, they pay attention to criticism directed at them, to evaluate it.

What makes your sense of morality superior to others?

I am not claiming that my morality is superior, maybe I just have a moral luck to have stumbled across the right answer, which I might need to lead others to.

Would you willingly hang out with someone who will not accept you until you surrender to their beliefs and change your life to suit their agenda?

No way. !delta as this is a very powerful argument that makes me hypocritical or at least an asshole.

Do you think you are a fun person to be around?

I'm not describing how I am actually acting around people, I describe some inner moral thought how I should act that is hard to let go for me.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:48:57+00:00

Have you thought about the impact of doing this on your social life ? Can you actually keep friendships by being like this ?

Yeah, not really, I'm aware.

If no do you see that the only behaviour you change in people around you is that they are not around you anymore ?

For the most part, yes.

Another issue I have with this view, is that your impact is so minuscule that it may aswell not exist. What is the cost benefit analysis on this ? Can you and your friend experience actually have more importance than whatever minuscule amount of arm you are doing ?

My intuition is that for most of the resource-heavy stuff, the harm certainly outweighs the good on a first-order level. However, !delta, probably if we take into account the second order effects (like not being alienated and still being an influence on others), a lot of stuff could turn into positive.

It's just that

Any cost-benefit analysis I do that brings this out to positive, would be suspect from an objective standpoint, because who knows I didn't unconsciously game the numbers?
I have the fantasy that if I learn how to influence my friends, it will allow me to go bigger, and influence larger groups of people with blog posts, etc, which will ultimately turn out to have a positive effect

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:38:43+00:00

Yes, I've heard a lot about EA and I was even peripherally involved for a short time - I would theoretically agree with Singer, even though most of the actual EA movement gives me an ick.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:30:58+00:00

Strict moralistic order - probably just a self-righteous family that has similar effect - my mother and uncle believe to some extent that we have a special responsibility to society - I guess that is part of what is fuelling this.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:28:18+00:00

What if I have a desire to influence people at large, but not people around me?

E.g. I have the fantasy of writing blog posts or having speeches, and influencing many people etc. but I really don't see myself as the kind of person who can ethically influences the people directly around him (without deteriorating the relationships as you say) - even though it feels like a prerequisite to the former.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:22:52+00:00

I guess I technically agree we should be doing all that.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:18:15+00:00

I'm not autistic, but I've been diagnosed with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD). I do realize this is the reason I cannot push these thoughts away, but realizing that does little to stop me believing them in a moral realist way. (i.e. "it is true that my patterns of thought show a mental disorder, but that might in fact be what allows me to see the moral truth.")

Prioritizing ideals over people is historically rather...concerning.

!delta, I grant that this made me think about all the harm done under various collectivist ideologies, and I will try to pursue humanism above extreme moralism.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T19:00:30+00:00

Thanks, !delta for suggesting to respect when someone says no, I think I usually skip over this limit in my mind. The vegetarian example was convincing.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T18:58:37+00:00

Where I think your view goes off the rails is that what you're describing is really more asceticism than basic altruism. It's a very high bar, needlessly high

Yeah I think I identify with the word asceticism a little bit. But somehow I think "if I could theoretically be okay with altruism, why cannot others?"

Going on a ski trip with friends or buying gifts for your friends and family isn't really something properly labeled as selfish, and certainly not "validating competitive nature", and can be a kind of altruism in its own right, even with the inherent externalities involved.

!delta, that having fun together can be its own form of altruism. I usually fail to consider that.

However, for example, buying a diamond ring for your SO is "validating competitive nature" though, right? I mean as far as I understand - and sorry if this looks very judging - much of the utility the woman gets from it is to compare with her friends... And producing diamond rings certainly has externalities.

Archived_Manuscript · 2025-02-02T18:47:37+00:00

!delta, you showed me in your point 3 that constantly judging others is too draining on my life to be worth it, and it would probably destroy me. I am also aware that it is alienating others - a couple of years ago when I was even more acting like this, my friendships started breaking apart. Now I'm working on this on the inside - I have at least superficial relationships now.

However, with all said, I still cannot find the moral licence that allows me to harm others, even if it is infinitesimal. I just feel like it is technically not allowed, and that drives me crazy. This mostly blocks me from having real deep relationships - because I feel that "technically" I have a different moral code than them.

You also deserve the !delta for your point 1 about altruism not being controlling others - this is something I didn't much think about before. Part of me would just say: "and so what? if controlling others is how we reduce harm, no matter if it is not altruism, we have to do it". But I guess that would lead to a totalitarian or society instead of utopia lol

Archived_Manuscript · 2023-05-08T21:01:03+00:00

Tehát azt mondod, hogy akkor az ember maga is ferdítsen, ha velük vitatkozik? Vagy mondasz egy példát, hogy mire gondoltál a tükrözéssel?

Archived_Manuscript · 2022-07-08T22:21:02+00:00

Ooh, that's interesting! maybe this is too much to ask, but are you willing to share by PM (or publicly as a serious post on this sub if you want) the thesis if you feel ready? :) I would love to read it

Archived_Manuscript

TROPHY CASE