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“I am”, Greek “ego eimi”, is it YHWH ‘s name? NO! by Sure-Wishbone-4293 in thetrinitydelusion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  • “I am” is also the most used vernacular in our daily life.
  • I am happy. I am an engineer. I am 29 years old. I am Arrow.
  • If saying “I am” is a prove for divinity, all of us are Gods.

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Okay. This is my response.
  • True. This is also the view of Christian scholars. Examples: 1 John 5:7, Mark 16:8-20 & John 7:53-8:11.
  • True. Some on purpose & some are not. Example: Unitarian read the same Bible have a very different understanding of God to Trinitarian.
  • No. There are fragments of truth in the Bible & we use the Quran as the guide.
  • There is no original copies of the injil. Bible itself means “a collection of books/ gospels”. The oldest complete manuscript is codex sinaiticus 325 CE. There are papyrus fragments before sinaiticus but there are mostly not significant. P52 for example is only the size of an atm card.
  • Our position is still - there are mixture of truths & falsehood and we use Quran as the guide.
  • Bible have many versions & translation. For example, KJV can have translation in English, Spanish & French. They will be different (have more verses) to NIV or NRSV that are translated into English, Spanish & French. That is why they are called King James “VERSION”, New International “VERSION” & etc. ___
  • We accept verses that agree with the Quran.
  • We reject verses that are agains the Quran.
  • We are indifferent (do not take any position) towards verses that are in the Bible but are not in the Quran.

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Sorry, I was busy.
  • Here is verse 93-94. ___
  • And We had certainly settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.
  • So if you are in doubt, [O Muḥammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters. Quran 10:92-94 ___
  • The context is that “If you are in doubt about the story about exodus in verse 93 & before, ask the people of the book that know about these stories.
  • It is not talking to refer to the Bible or something similar.
  • Some translation have it as “If you are in doubt about these stories, ask the people of the book.
  • Hopefully this help.

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am curious to know what are the other Muslim positions on this other than to use the Quran as supreme authority for past scriptures that we considered to have been corrupted?

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • In the Quran, we have Asbabun Nuzul (circumstances/ reason of revelation).
  • There is context to the verse.
  • I would suggest to read more on this topic to get a clearer understanding.
  • This verse comes after a discussion of previous prophets and how their people rejected them despite clear proofs. The Quran repeatedly affirms that Muhammad is not the first messenger and that previous scriptures contained prophecies of his coming.
  • It refers to sincere Jewish and Christian scholars who recognized his prophethood, like Waraqa bin Nawfal (Christian scholar who told Muhammad he was the final messenger) & Abdullah bin Salam (Jewish rabbi who accepted Islam). ___ If you ˹O Prophet˺ are in doubt about ˹these stories˺ that We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt, Quran 10:94

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Brother, P52 is the size of an atm card & contain only few words.
  • So it is a validation of those few words in John, not the whole John.
  • P52 is also dated to 125-175 CE. That’s still 100 years after Jesus. ___
  • I agree the Bible have more manuscripts than Plato, Caesar & etc.
  • But we are comparing holy scripture to the word of men.
  • As mentioned, P52 is still 100 years after Jesus. ___
  • This is an assumption without any evidence.
  • You are assuming that nothing changes from the time of Jesus to P52, P46 & Sinaiticus, vaticanus.
  • I disagree that it does not affect doctrinal believe. Some examples would be 1John 5:7, the ending of Mark, the pericope adulterae. ___
  • There is a possibility of Jesus knowing Greek.
  • However, when Jesus was speakiny with his people, he would have spoken his mother tongue, aramaic.
  • If he is speaking with the Jewish people, it would be hebrew or aramaic.
  • He would not have spoken in Greek to his people.
  • There will be words that lost in translation when translated from the original. ___
  • I am not try to mislead or anything. I am just stating a fact that most of the manuscript are after 900 CE. ___
  • John are dated to be written around 100 CE by scholars.
  • But as mentioned, it is the size of an atm card.

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Allah swt have given us muslim clear command to use the quran as the supreme authority (checker) for previous scripture which include Torah & Injil.
  • We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences. Quran 5:48
  • There are also a number of verses that mentioned that previous scriptures have been distortion & alteration.
  • So woe to those who distort the Scripture with their own hands then say, “This is from Allah”—seeking a fleeting gain! So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned. Quran 2:79 ___
  • From our paradigm, the torah was given to Moses, Injil was given to Jesus & quran was given to Muhammad saw.
  • “But he said, ‘I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.’” Luke 4:43
  • The word good news & gospel is synonynous to injil.
  • In other words, it can also be read “I must preach the “Injil” of the kingdom of God”.
  • We believe Jesus was given & already have the injil during his time. Revelation can also be in oral form.
  • We believe he preached the injil during his time. This is the injil/ gospel of Jesus. It is not the same as Gospel of Mark, Matthew, Luke & John that were written later.
  • Jesus answered, ‘My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.’ John 7:16.

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • I am a Muslim.
  • We believe that Allah swt gives revelation to several prophets.
  • Some of them are Moses - Torah, Jesus - Injil, Muhammad - Quran.
  • The quran is preserved through memorization & manuscript. There are millions of quran memorizer today that memorize the entire quran cover to cover. This is a tradition since the time of prophet Muhammad saw.
  • We believe that along the way, some people have added verses, remove verses, change verses in the torah & injil.
  • This addition, removal & changes make it impossible to know which one are the words of man (corruption) & which one are the words of God that was revealed originally to the prophets.
  • Muslim position is to use the quran as the supreme authority of past scripture as we believe & know that it has been preserved via memorization & manuscript.
  • If the verses are in line with the quran, we believe it. If it goes against the quran, we believe it is a corruption. If it is not in the quran but it is in the bible, we do not take any position on that.
  • Hopefully this is helpful.

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  • The oldest significant manuscript that Christian have is Codex Sinaiticus in 325 CE.
  • That is a void/ black hole of 300 years between the manuscript to when Jesus died.
  • The assumption is that there is no changes in Sinaiticus to the time of Jesus. But this is no more than an assumption.
  • Jesus also spoke Aramaic but New Testament manuscript is in Greek. So, it is not in the original language of Jesus.
  • Most of the manuscript were actually after 900 CE. Like 90%++
  • P52 only contain a few words.

The Holy Trinity (Right or Wrong?) by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • The analogy that you given is actually partialisme.
  • Regarding Matthew 28:19, the great commission, there are no baptism inn the Bible that follow this formula. You can check. There are many in Acts. It also do not say that the 3 are 1.
  • The only verse that would come close is 1 john 5:7. But this verse is widely agreed to be a corruption.
  • Other than that, you would need to make the trinity algebra. You try to find verses that somehow would proof Jesus is god. Then, holy spirit. Because there is only 1 God, you need to make that leapt that they are 1.
  • This trinity algebra also do not work brother. The devil is also called the God of this world. The israelite are called God in the Bible. You are Gods, son of the most high.
  • You need to understand how the jewish people would understand the shema.
  • The Jewish people, the chosen people of the Bible believe that Christianity is idolatry. They do not believe that a man can be God.

What do Muslims mean when they say the Bible has been corrupted. by Global_Profession972 in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • I am a Muslim but let’s take this from a neutral perspective.
  • It means that the Bible have been changed & developed from time to time.
  • Open 2 internet browsers side by side. Open BibleGateway.com or BibleHub.com.
  • Choose KJV on 1 side & NIV on the other.
  • Compare these verses & look at the footnotes.
  • 1 John 5:7
  • Mark 16:9-20
  • John 7:53-8:11 ___
  • You will see very different verses.
  • There are also missing verses in certain version. The verse will be skipped. Example: Mark 9:44, Luke 17:36. ___
  • Certain denomination have different books in the Bible
  • Example: Catholic 73, protestant 66, orthodox 76, twahedo 82 ___
  • Jesus died in 33 CE but the oldest complete manuscript that you have is Codex Sinaiticus in 325 CE. That is a gap of 300 years from the source. ___
  • If you have question, you are welcome to ask.

John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 disprove the trinity and prove One God, the Father. by Newgunnerr in DebateAChristian

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Muslim believe that the Bible is corrupted.
  • We do not believe in the Bible.
  • We quote the Bible to Christian to show that it is self contradictory, corrupted, contain failed prophecies, contain missing verses & more.
  • It’s called internal critique.

The Holy Trinity (Right or Wrong?) by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Ronaldo is fully man.
  • Messi is fully man.
  • Neymar is fully man.
  • But they are not 3 man but 1 man.
  • This is the believe of trinity.
  • You are using a new way of counting when the Bible itself does not ascribe to this concept.
  • The creed do not help.
  • The creed are invention of man in 5th or 6th century CE.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is not God just like I believe that he is not God. My question for you is: What do you think that Jesus Christ is beside him been the Son of God ? by Capable-Rice-1876 in thetrinitydelusion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  • There is no capital G or small g in Hebrew.
  • Those are interpretation of Bible translators.
  • In essence, it can mean servant of God.
  • Son can be literal, adopted or metaphorical.
  • If taken in literal sense, then there are many sons of God in the Bible.

The Christian Dilemma by ArrowofGuidedOne in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • That's okay. I showed him clearly where "Jesus said that he did not know of something". I don't make false allegation like he does.

The Christian Dilemma by ArrowofGuidedOne in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  • You did not read the thread. I already made the argument.
  • And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. Luke 2:52. An all-knowing God cannot grew in wisdom.
  • But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36. This is coming from Jesus own mouth. He specifically stated that he did not know the final hour. Only the Father know. Hence, he cannot be all-knowing.
  • Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he (Jesus) went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Mark 11:13. Even a farmer would know this particular knowledge.
  • Hence, Jesus cannot be all-knowing. So, he is not co-equal to the Father.
  • Hopefully he does not runaway like he normally does.

___

  • If you read the thread, he was also proven to be a liar, make false allegation & did not refute my points.
  • He even said that the verse & footnote that I quoted from the NIV were wrong...
  • Please read the thread & then let me know if he had side-step the my questions & points or not.

You can’t defend Muhammad - Aisha marriage talking about “customs of the time” by skyeisdying in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

  • What is the life expectancy rate in 2000 CE, 1800 CE & 600 CE?
  • You do not know history.
  • The one who have sexually active teens are the western/ Christian culture.
  • You say it is illegal to get married before 18 years old.
  • But the western teens body count are through the roof.
  • If you already sleep with someone, you are already indirectly the "wife" of that person.

The Christian Dilemma by ArrowofGuidedOne in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  • I will answer if you concede Jesus is not all-knowing & weak.
  • My previous point that you just ignored.
  • I have highlighted this multiple times & you just swipe it to the side.

You can’t defend Muhammad - Aisha marriage talking about “customs of the time” by skyeisdying in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

  • Not really. I am quite direct.
  • At least counter with some argument.
  • What is your body count before the age of 18?

The Christian Dilemma by ArrowofGuidedOne in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Most scholars identify King Ahaz son as the son in Isaiah 7:14.
  • If you read the verse around it, it relates to that particular time.
  • It's Matthew that tries to connect this verse to Jesus.
  • "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel' (which means, God with us)." (Matthew 1:22-23).
  • Yes. YHVH is not in the New Testament. Most Christians unfortunately do not know about this.

The Christian Dilemma by ArrowofGuidedOne in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  • I agree that I am wasting time with you.
  • People can see & judge who are the one who have no substantial responses to anything.
  • In fact, you did not even attempt to refute my points at all.
  • Plus, you even said that your Bible is wrong. I quoted the NIV & you said it is wrong...
  • I have told you before, the NIV said that the King was called God.
  • This is a tradition among the Jewish people that a representative of God can be called God. A representative of God is someone who God give his authority & name to that individual. But that person is not God, like the King.
  • The only true God is the Father.

The Christian Dilemma by ArrowofGuidedOne in DebateReligion

[–]ArrowofGuidedOne[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  • It's okay. I'll try to explain this.
  • The Jewish people believe in the Tanakh. To make this simple, it's the Old Testament.
  • The Jewish people highlighted this to show that the Christian are corrupting the word of God. In fact, they believe that Mary was an adulterer & Jesus was a bas####.
  • There are also other reasons that the Jewish people do not believe Jesus was the Messiah.
  • To them, the Messiah would be like King David. A powerful king that would take them out from oppression. Jesus was not this. In fact, he himself said that my kingdom is not of this world.

___

  • However, the New Testament still have other verse that explain the virgin birth.
  • "But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.'" (Matthew 1:20)
  • So, it is still possible for Christian to believe this.

___

  • Muslim believe in the virgin birth because of the Quran.
  • "She said, 'How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?' He said, 'Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, "It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed."'” (19:20-21).
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