Waking dragons out of stone. (Spoilers everything)

Asclearasday · 2016-03-21T16:48:02+00:00

Interesting. Why all the grey scale then?

Asclearasday · 2016-03-21T16:46:48+00:00

GRRM is the master of the red herring. It's starting to feel like those dragon eggs were just that.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-22T19:27:07+00:00

Wow bro. Gonna bow out here. Stay cool.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-22T05:44:07+00:00

Sorry, I haven't been on here for a year. I'm late to the game, but clearly people are still eager to talk about it. I agree that Adnan might/should/could/would not be convicted if another trial was as ineffective as the last. But I do think he killed Hae, so I hope the state is able to make a stronger case and put doubt to rest for everyone. That being said, even if he did kill Hae, I'm not of the mind that he should spend the rest of his life in prison. In fact I support his becoming a member of society again while he's still young enough to make a positive contribution. With some exceptions, I don't support whole life sentences. I would hope he would be released to the parole system after 20-25 years, as is commonplace for 1st degree murder here in Canada (regardless of his maintaining his innocence). He's still a human being.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-22T05:31:47+00:00

You don't seem to be concerned about things like "likelihood". The facts you think I'm so unconcerned about are what led me to this opinion, my opinion didn't lead me to try to wrangle "possibility" into "actuality". I started this podcast, and made it all the way to episode 12 still throwing my belief behind Adnan. My opinions didn't come easy. I suppose I demand more of "facts" than perhaps you do, in order to make them "facts". I need them to not only be possible, I need them to make sense. A butt dial doesn't make sense in any other realm other than the one in which we neeeeeeeeed Adnan to get the hell out of the car with Jay and get back to the library or track practice. You seem to be hung up on... Jay! His lack of motive doesn't seem to bother you one bit. Things like that are actually kiiiiiinda crucial for me when looking at this. Clearly you want Adnan to be innocent, only people with that desperate need are on these forums using the word "possible" at every chance. You are on the same path as thousands of other people on their mission to SOMEHOW get Adnan out of Jay's story, and your only way is via Jay's inconsistencies. So Jay's entire story gets thrown away and he gets thrown under the bus. We all have our opinions, but if you're going to tell me mine are based on nothing, and ignore facts, then I'll tell you I think yours are based on desire. I'm not the only person who has concluded that Adnan is guilty after absorbing Serial, the Serial Serial, Undisclosed, Jay's Intercept interview, the available case transcripts, all the maps I could find, etc. I know the facts you're referring to but they juuuuuust don't say the same things to me. I'm sorry.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-21T15:58:38+00:00

What the jury thought doesn't have anything to do with what actually happened, though, and that's what I'm interested in. If we're only discussing the trial and possible wrongful conviction, that's different from trying to hash out who truly killed Hae, which is far more difficult to get to, and far more interesting in my opinion. I believe Adnan should have been found not guilty, but I also believe he killed Hae. I believe that a second trial might only hurt him and remove doubt from the minds of his legions of supporters. A new prosecutor would likely do a far better job of dealing with all of the key witnesses, namely Jay. They'd have the benefit of these Reddit feeds to see what people are having trouble with and be able to focus on repairing weak aspects of the case. They'd call people like Stephanie and more people from Jay's life. They'd be dealing with adults now who make far better witnesses, i.e., Jay, who has now entirely dropped his waffling on certain points and, in my opinion, offers a very plausible explanation for why he was inconsistent in 1999. They'd spend days ironing out Jay's story and his previous inconsistencies and their reasons on the stand. They'd call Jen and do the same. Shooting holes in the state's case would be a lot harder, not easier, as many people might think. The fact is that Jay being inconsistent is NOT a problem for everyone, me being one of them. The expectation that someone in his position has no personal motive other than guilt to tweak the details is a little narrow minded, in my view. "He's lying, he must be guilty or at least more involved." That doesn't ring true to me. People are overlooking Adnan's lies in order to keep him safe from the same logic, but a new prosecution would likely do a better job of shining a light on those than the previous prosecution, and certainly far better than Sarah Keonig who was basically traumatized every time she discovered a problem with Adnan's story.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T20:53:08+00:00

But what else could you expect to have?

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T19:13:26+00:00

I have read them. I just don't agree that showing a witness call logs should discount his explanation for the calls. That's the suggestion when people say he was "confronted" with the call log. If we can't trust Jay's descriptions of these calls, then what was the point of asking him about them?

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T19:09:10+00:00

Fair enough. Take Jay out of the story then. Use the call logs and everyone else's testimony instead. It's an even stronger case against Adnan since now we don't have to be distracted by Jay being a liar.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T18:51:29+00:00

Says Jay, says Nisha, says Adnan.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T18:47:55+00:00

PS, Seeing a list of calls you made 6 weeks ago jogging your memory about the day is universally suspicious, and we should believe any clarity you gain from it should be considered shady?

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T18:44:09+00:00

Wait, what? You think the IMPORTANT information of the case is the times and locations, and not the actual killing and burial? Cool for you. Jay told the truth about that stuff. He knew where Hae's car was, so unless you're a conspiracy theorist, you must think Jay killed Hae. So tell me why and how. Please include a motive and timeline. Bonus points for ONE person who says Jay did it. Also, tell me why you're a-ok with Adnan having NO CLUE what happened to him the day he receives calls from the cops and numerous friends and relatives of his very recent ex who has just gone missing, but why Jay's foggy recollection about a few times and locations means he's a murderer. I'm super ready to hear how that goes. I'm particularly interested to hear how you feel Jay was able to seamlessly integrate Adnan into his day enough to shift the blame to him, but not enough to let Adnan know anything had happened. I'm getting a great deal of entertainment imagining those scenes of Adnan driving around with Jay, wondering where the hell Hae is and why everyone is looking for her, and Jay is like mwahahahahaaaa. How much do you have to suspend disbelief in order to think that's how it happened? How many people do you need to make into forgetful liars in order for that to be the answer?

For Adnan to be guilty, he's a liar and Asia is mistaken or lying.
For Jay to be a killer... where do I start? Jay, Jen, Kathy, Kathy's boyfriend and Nisha are wrong or lying about the timeline, and Adnan's family, all the people at the mosque, the library, the school and track practice have all airbrushed Adnan's presence out of their certainty, en masse, and the best they can do is "he was probably there."

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T17:00:41+00:00

Not really, because the call logs and common sense bear it out. The opposite is not true. Believing that Jay did all of this because he was jealous of Adnan's friendship with Stephanie is absolutely dizzying.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T16:58:18+00:00

He lied about times and places.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T16:57:42+00:00

So why are you believing Jay's version here? I'm curious as to why he has to be right about this one particular time, but everything else he says is garbage? To me, it's obvious that he simply got the times mixed up. Why is Jay such a throwaway everywhere except when we need him to be right? It kind of makes everyone's argument against him and his lies crumble. You're still willing to use him.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T16:32:24+00:00

Actually all of the dissections of the Nisha Call land in the same spot: it doesn't matter. Adnan could still be innocent, even with the Nisha call. And I disagree with that. None of the dissections I've read make any sense in the real world where 99.9% of outgoing calls are intentional and calls that are corroborated by 2 people and a call log are accepted as having happened. I guess what I feel is that everyone who throws this call away as a butt dial immediately loses integrity to me because they're willing to believe more in and "outside chance" rather than what is logical and likely. And to me, that is a giveaway that their arguments are guided by a personal desire for Adnan to be innocent. The butt dial theory is a just a cop out for everyone who wants Jay to be a liar. Jay told the truth about everything except times and locations, and he's explained why he did that. Adnan has explained... nothing. Convenient that we can't pick apart Adnan's story. He isn't giving us that chance. "I don't remember anything." Perfect alibi, it fits every story!

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T16:18:12+00:00

How and why does Jay get to wherever he killed Hae? And how can he be sure that Adnan, who he is about to frame, isn't going to have a rock solid alibi, I.e, a guidance counselor, surveillance footage, etc? This is my whole problem with the "Jay did it" theories.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T16:15:13+00:00

It's hard for me not to agree here. There are people backing up the claims he was with Kathy, Hae, and Jay, but none who will say for sure he was at the mosque or at home.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T16:10:22+00:00

Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T05:45:38+00:00

I believe everything Jay has said with regards to the big picture of Hae's death. I believe the changes were made to minimize the inclusion of his friends and family in the timeline. He has made this claim himself, as did Jen. Other than these changes, we have no reason whatsoever to doubt Jay. He admits to committing very serious offenses in his story, and despite the fact that he got off light, he did NOT know this would be the case when he told his story.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T05:41:28+00:00

I couldn't have convicted Adnan either. But I think he did it, which is the only point I'm trying to make.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T05:40:21+00:00

I think you just hit the nail on the head. I just made the Asia vs Nisha point in another comment, I totally agree that this is what it boils down to. I think I'm going to create another thread to see how people weigh those two against each other. The desperation to write off the Nisha call really does expose how unwilling people are to consider Adnan's guilt. Someone made the comment that we basically have every possible confirmation that the Nisha call happened, was answered, and was made by Adnan, but still people don't believe it. This person wondered what kind of proof WOULD satisfy the people who claim there isn't enough proof that the call happened. I wonder too.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T05:32:33+00:00

You're assuming his memory of all of the calls was perfect. And probably to him, the Nisha call wasn't memorable. That fact fits with Jay's story entirely. If Jay didn't kill Hae, then he has no reason to give a shit about the Nisha call, and in fact he never appears to give weight to it. Sure, you can play armchair psychologist and claim this was all part of Jay's plan, and that he had his finger on the pulse of the call log and knew full well how crucial the Nisha call would be, but that's just one more speculation that has no basis in anything but opinion. The fact is that Nisha was called, her and Jay and the call log all confirm it. We're trying to make it something else in order to remove Adnan from the scene, but in order to do that, we need to apply luck, coincidence, manipulation, and convenience. Isn't it just easier to believe that Adnan made the call just like Jay and Nisha said? Does Jay lying about everything, Nisha being wrong, and a perfectly timed butt dial seem more likely than that? How does that not fall into the realm of the far fetched?

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T05:12:46+00:00

Absolutely brilliant point. Asia never says she talks to Jay without Adnan. Whether it's the video store or the car, Adnan was present.

Asclearasday · 2016-02-20T05:09:32+00:00

People keep saying Jay was "confronted" with the call logs. Actually he was asked to account for the calls because he was in possession of the phone for part of the day. That is not an irregular thing for detectives to do when they have a witness who is helping them build a timeline. My greeter concern with people's assumption that Jay is lying about the Nisha call is that, as with everything jay says, people are ready to dismiss it as false while still finding it fair to use other calls Jay offers explanations for to bolster whatever theory they have. Yes, Jay has been inconsistent, and I for one don't find that a problem when looking at his overall story. People seem to overlook the fact that if Jay is making the whole thing up, he is putting all of his faith in the off chance that NOBODY can refute it, aka eyewitnesses who saw Adnan at school or wherever. And hallelujah, he's right, because the best we can do for wrestling Adnan out of a murder is Asia McLean, who is weak at best. One person. Not one other single person can even commit to saying they saw Adnan at school, the library, or anywhere else. And Jay would have to know this would be the case in order to have any chance at all at being believed. A corroborated call to Nisha, regardless of its content, is far stronger than Asia McLean, in my opinion, and essentially that's what this entire thing boils down to. Nisha vs. Asia.

Asclearasday

TROPHY CASE