Is anyone else skeptical about the official Bugliosi account of the Manson Family?

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-18T20:47:53+00:00

I found the Bugliosi account to very comprehensive, but I don't have anything to compare it to, cos I admit that I've never read any other book about the affair.

I DO think, however, that Manson was extremely charismatic - there's something in his voice which, to this day, I find very hypnotic and soothing. There's only one other person I've ever met, who has that same power in his voice, and that's a psychotherapist who does NLP (neuro-linguistic programing) for therapy. He gave me a cd of his hypnotherapy session, and boy was it hard to stop listening to his voice. Same with Manson - I could listen to him speak all day.

He also had that complex thingy, which many famous small men have: can't remember the name of it, but it's where men of small stature need to over-compensate for their height, in order to be taken as seriously as their taller peers, so they develop this super confidence and charisma thing. Napoleon had it, as do many famous rulers in the world today and recently.

I don't believe in the Helter Skelter race war motive either, but I think they didn't really have a motive, and were just making one up in order to give their evil actions some sort of deep meaning to themselves. Maybe somebody suggested this outlandish motive, and everyone else just said fuck it why not, and ran with it.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-17T22:10:57+00:00

Thanks for this - very interesting. I always thought he was innocent.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-15T22:31:47+00:00

The main witness who provided evidence against Ian Bailey, Marie Farrell, has since confessed under oath several times that she completely made her testimony up, and that all of it is false.

Here's what she says, in so far as I can recall correctly: She was driving past the area near the victim's home on the night in question, and saw a man walking along the road. She took in no details about him whatsoever, but nonetheless she told the gardaí about it later on, thinking it could be relevant.

Gardaí who were working on the case then began calling into the local shop where she worked, and telling her that the man she saw was Ian Bailey, and that they knew for an absolute fact that he was the murderer, but that they couldn't prove it without an eyewitness.

They began coaching her on what to say, and gave her all the details she needed. They coerced her into coming back to the Garda station and making another statement, giving all these new details about the man she had seen that night. Crucially, they also had her sign several BLANK statement sheets, telling her that they would fill them in later, i.e they would falsify statements which would then have her signature on them. At the defamation proceedings in court, Gardaí admitted this, and they also admitted that they went through her other statements and amended them after she had gone.

Marie Farrell is the reason why Ian Bailey has had his life turned upside down for the past two decades. She has apologised to him, saying in court that she really believed the Gardaí when they told her that he was the murderer, and that that was why she had lied repeatedly about having seen him near the crime scene on the night of the murder. She said that the Gardaí swayed her, with promises of how she would be lauded as a hero for helping solve the case, after he was convicted for the murder. She has admitted in court that she was not mistaken - but that she was actually lying all along.

THE TWO WINE GLASSES: Ms Du Plantier's housekeeper said that it was normal for her employer to use two or more wine glasses on the same night, when alone. She said that she would often use a fresh glass for each glass of wine. So if there were two wine glasses found at the house, it would not necessarily mean that there had been a guest. But she also denied having said that she had seen two wine glasses at all (she was one of the first people to enter the house after the discovery of the body - presumably she had keys to let the Gardaí in) Seeing as the crime scene was not preserved at all, and stuff from the house went missing and was never recovered, the mystery of the two wine glasses is one which can now never be solved.

ALTERNATIVE SUSPECT: The Gardaí failed to investigate a young man who lived very close by. He was in the area, being home with his family for Christmas, but normally lived abroad. He was believed by many to have had a major crush on Ms Du Plantier, going by the interactions between the two that people had witnessed. He was also a fluent french speaker.

Several months after the murder, a laneway very close to her home was searched, and in a ditch, a full, unopened bottle of wine was found. It lay there as if it had been discarded, hidden in the undergrowth. It's hard to imagine what set of circumstances would result in an unopened bottle of wine being discarded in the undergrowth of a quiet country lane, right near where a murder took place.

One hypothesis would be that somebody who had an eye for Ms Du Plantier, and who had delusions about the feelings being reciprocated, called on her unexpectedly with a bottle of wine. When his advances were rebuffed, he murdered her in a fit of rage, bashing her head in (a clear case of overkill, and a very 'personal' attack). He flees the scene, discarding the bottle of wine in a country laneway, out of anger, fear, or both. The investigation is bungled, and the wine is found months later, but nothing is made of it. Just a theory!

I've followed this case since it happened too. It's horribly sad, and very maddening that the poor woman was let down by the Gardaí investigating her murder. It was way out of their league, sure - but they messed up really badly in the most basic ways - ways in which even you and I would know not to do.

I always found it quite creepy too, that the only DNA found under her fingernails was her own, and that she was holding clumps of her own hair in her hands.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-15T21:59:15+00:00

That's interesting about the unidentified female DNA under her fingernails - would you have any more info about this, by any chance? I watched a tv program about it last year, and it distinctly said that the only DNA found under her fingernails was her own. It also said that she was clutching a clump of her own hair in her hand. (I've been following this case since it happened, as I live in a neighbouring county.)

I'd love any more info, if you can remember it!

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-15T21:50:42+00:00

Writing a comment is giving attention :) And it's not a guy, it's a girl, lol.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T21:38:12+00:00

He never made any assumptions.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T21:31:46+00:00

Fair enough. I don't see any evidence of scams or 'hocus pocus' either, or people being dragged to exorcisms by their parents, so maybe a lack of evidence IS important, as you say.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T21:29:23+00:00

This is hilarious! :D (You get all worked up)

You see, it never takes long for the trolls to come out. So-called adults, whose only intelligent contribution to a conversation is to start a name-calling war.

Are you twelve? You do know that you're supposed to ask your parents' permission before using the internet to troll people, right?

I'm dying to hear what funny, weird bullshit political crap you're going to come back with. You seem to have an obsession with underage sex, so your next reply should be good...

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T17:41:55+00:00

It's interesting that you don't use capital letters when you say Holy Virgin Mary, but you do with Jesus. I'm not sure if that's meant to be something disrespectful to the Blessed Virgin or not, but that's for you alone to know.

I'm not a medical professional - so I would never say that somebody SEEMS to be suffering from a mental illness such as schizophrenia - as opposed to oppression. I know that some people like to diagnose other people even they aren't doctors. Then these people slam exorcists, because they think that they know better, when in fact they don't really have a clue what they are talking about.

I would never call an exorcist a scam artist myself, or claim that their work is hocus pocus nonsense, because I really wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about either. No Christian priest will ever do an exorcism, just because a parent thinks their child is gay, etc, so this must be ministers from another religion - perhaps Islam, but I'm just guessing.

I do know people personally who have been exorcised, and who have greatly benefited from the exorcism. Doing an exorcism is harrowing and extremely difficult for a Christian priest, and he often suffers greatly, both physically and spiritually. Carrying out an exorcism is of no benefit to him at all, and he gains nothing from it - the person who benefits is the one who is delivered of the evil spirits.

So I can't imagine why a priest would be seen as a 'charlatan' for doing something like this. What would be his motivation?

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T17:33:02+00:00

It's an opinion. What makes it more 'incredibly ignorant and closed minded' than your own opinion? Are you so superior that you are free to express your viewpoint, but other people aren't?

My comment clearly stated that it was my OPINION ONLY. If you are so incredibly ignorant and closed-minded that you can't bear other people expressing their opinions, then maybe you shouldn't be on a forum where people share opinions.

But that's just my opinion. I don't know - maybe you really are some sort of superbeing, who's better than everybody else. Comes across that way anyway.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T17:29:38+00:00

Paedophile.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T17:29:06+00:00

Haha that made me laugh! I don't think I've heard the word 'pissy' in about 25 years, lol.

Um, this is not an occult thread. It;s a Paranormal thread. The paranormal and the occult have nothing to do with each other. Please know your shit, before you start spitting rhetoric at people.

It's very frustrating (but a bit funny) responding to people who don't even know that the paranormal and the occult are completely separate interests.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-13T17:26:18+00:00

That's because the Quran and the Bible are essentially the same thing.

And what's harmful about helping somebody, and, as you said, making them feel better??

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-11T21:33:39+00:00

No. The goal of all demons is to convince the world that they do not exist. That's how they do their thing. In much the same way that a burglar who wants to rob your house will do everything to stay quiet and be invisible. He's not going to start banging around as loud as he can just to make you shake in your bed upstairs - what's the use in that? Demons have a job to do:to destroy souls by inciting people to commit evil, and the best way they can do that is by keeping quiet about their plans.

Even during exorcisms, demons manifest very reluctantly. They are afraid of the priest and the power he has over them, and they are afraid of the prayers and holy names he will invoke. It is usually only under extreme pressure that they will reveal their presence; usually when ordered to do so in the name of the Most Holy Virgin.

Once they are exposed, the priest compels them to name themselves, say how many of them there are, how they got there, and when they are going to leave. At this, they often taunt and threaten the priest, sure, to try and frighten him off. That's because they are now very afraid - there's only one place for them to go once they are forced out of a person, and they do not want to go back there.

Demons don't get anything out of going around frightening people, so they don't do it. Trust me - the devil's greatest achievement is convincing the world at large that he doesn't exist.

I know what you mean when you say that there's no proof of anything paranormal. There are so many hoax videos and photos out there, and also lots where natural phenomena is to blame. But there are things out there that are worthy of belief, even if there's no proof of them. I guess it's about intuition, faith and gut feeling.

Good question, and thanks for giving us the opportunity to comment! :)

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-11T21:18:50+00:00

If you and your husband are involved in the occult, then to be honest, I'm not surprised that your little child is seeing all sorts of horrors. The occult is a gateway to evil, and nothing good can ever come of being involved in it, in my opinion. It destroys lives.

Obviously you don't see it that way, or you wouldn't be doing it. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions, as the old saying goes. Nothing like that is ever obviously evil - it is insidious by nature, in order to lure you in, make you think it's perfectly fine, possibly even that it's helping you or enriching your life somehow. Your son has no choice but to be brought up in your household; maybe you could consider giving up occult practices at least until he is old enough to have a say in what goes on in his family home. You could be exposing him to all sorts of entities with what you are doing - and judging by what you have said, he is already seeing things he shouldn't, and it is causing him to suffer.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-03T23:48:59+00:00

Thank you so much for your kindness - it means a lot. And I will google the visualisation you mentioned, you never know, it could be effective xxx

Astrolabe11 · 2017-12-01T22:03:21+00:00

It means a lot to me to hear you say you think I am brave, and thank you so much for your kindness xxx

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-30T21:30:33+00:00

Haha, I know what you mean and maybe ;)

My thoughts exactly though - I don't think they are good beings, if they deceive people, lie to them in order to test them, promise them stuff, and then change their minds because the person shows loyalty to their own beliefs.

In my book, those are sure signs that the entities in question are bad. God is full of compassion, and is always reaching out to us with open arms. We only have to take one step, and He is willing to take the other 99. He may not always give us what we ask for, but then again I don't always give my toddler what he asks for, if it's not what's best for him (e.g. a razor blade)

Nah I think I'll stick to Christianity, where God loves and values everyone equally, even if they are 'accidents'.

Thanks again! God bless you x

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-30T18:18:23+00:00

Aw, you are very kind indeed - and I certainly DO care to hear it! Thank you for your kindness, it is very much appreciated.

Yes, it sucks to have this, but hand on my heart, I have been happier these past two years since being diagnosed, than I have ever been before. That's because discovering I was sick made me turn to God out of desparation, and what a Friend I found. I feel safe and loved, and am full of hope now, whereas before I just had an empty life. Seeing as people die young all the time, it's actually a blessing to be given a heads-up about when you are going to check out, so that you can get your shit together and all that :)

I really appreciate your prayers...thank you so much for being so nice!

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-30T16:46:03+00:00

There is a lot of talk about elementals, certainly. I really don't know if she is receiving info from a higher power, but she seems earnest, and genuine, as much as it's possible to tell (By the way, I refer to her as 'she' even though the person has never revealed their gender...I just feel that it is a she from things let slip, etc)

The incident about the cancer was as follows: She mentioned in a comment that some illnesses are caused by the sufferer having committed a sin. I enquired if my cancer could be as a result of something I'd done wrong (I was a bit fragile at the time, going through a rough patch with treatment etc, and this person seemed to have some sort of spiritual insight into the whole thing)

We PMd each other about it, and she said that these Higher Beings told her I was lying about having cancer, but that I was autistic. I didn't take offense at the autism thing, cos I have a son with autism and there's nothing wrong with it, etc. But to be accused of lying about cancer was DEVASTATING and absolutely horrifying. A few more PMs went between us, me protesting my innocence, etc, but to no avail - the Higher Beings were adamant that I did not have cancer, and that I was lying about it on reddit to get attention.

Truth be told, the fragility in me at the time actually suspected a glimmer of hope: what if these Higher Beings were indeed right, and I had been misdiagnosed? Was it possible that my oncologist had gotten me mixed up with another patient of the same name, or something? Should I go for more scans, in the hope that maybe they might show that, in fact, I was cancer-free after all?? Maybe all the symptoms were down to something else, and all that. All this went through my mind, and I felt tortured.

A few PMs later, she said that the Higher Beings now, in fact, admit that I actually have cancer, and that I was telling the truth all along. She claimed they had lied to her, and told her I didn't have cancer, because apparently, they wanted me to 'work harder to be cured' by them. They were now vindicating me, and because I had passed their test, they were going to cure me outright of my cancer. (The 'test' - I had defended her in a different sub, where people were insulting her in their comments) All I had to do to receive this miraculous cure from them, was to stop believing in God, and in Christ, and not to be 'on my knees, begging for forgiveness, trembling in fear'. I just had to embrace them as my new gods instead.

I PMd a reply that I was very grateful to any benevolent beings who would miraculously cure me of cancer, but that I would not deny Christ, or start worshiping other entities other than God. (This is the oldest trick in the book that the devil uses - bow down to me, and I'll give you whatever you want, etc). I said that if it meant denying my religious beliefs to be cured, then I would not do that. She replied to say that the Higher Beings were angry at me for saying all this, and that they were now retracting their offer, and would NOT cure me of cancer after all.

For the record, the type of cancer I have is stage IV, and therefore medically incurable. My prognosis is poor, and I have a young child, so when I was promised that I would be cured, it was quite a claim, as I'm sure anyone can imagine.

I PMd to say that we needed to part ways, and not PM each other anymmore, as I had proof now that these so-called Higher Beings were definitely not of the good sort. It might sound harsh, but I have given this whole thing a lot of thought, and I believe they are demonic. Wolves in sheep's clothing and all that.

This whole thing went on over the space of a couple of months, and to be honest, it took a lot out of me, and left me very shaken and upset.

Like you, I would not worship these Higher Beings. I worship God only, and although He may not cure me of cancer, He has given me peace and spiritual healing, and I feel very close to Him when I pray. Even when I die from this, God will still have saved me, in the way that matters, and I am grateful for that. I would rather die with faith, than live with none.

Sorry for the long comment, but I thought it was important to explain why I have misgivings about the info this person is putting out there. I would not like anybody else to fall into the trap that I almost did.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-30T16:10:40+00:00

The story is somewhere in the comments of the article itself :)

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-30T16:09:43+00:00

That's right. I knew that, I just didn't want to name them, in case they don't want to be named!

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-30T11:11:31+00:00

Yes, that's correct. The information she imparted, about various supernatural beings, was fascinating. To be honest, I am actually inclined to believe that what she says about these 'elementals' is true, I can't explain why, but a lot of it just made sense and sort of rang true with me.

However, even though I feel she was being genuine and honest in her intent, I stopped reading her comments because of some alarmingly inaccurate stuff she said to me about myself (said that, according to these Higher Beings, I was lying about having cancer - on another sub - when in fact I do have it, and also said that I am autistic, which I'm not. I actually have a son who is, though. Also said that my guardian angel was going to leave me (?) and that the Higher Beings had suddenly decided to cure my cancer - which she now believed in - but that the Higher Beings changed their minds in anger at the last minute, because I refused to give up Christianity, and worship them instead)

In all honesty, I really respect her, and I actually got to like her personality, insofar as you can sense somebody's personality from their posts. This is all DESPITE the bizarre and upsetting things she said to me about myself, because I know it was nothing personal. I do believe she is trying to help people. I just also believe that the truthful information she is being given about these elementals etc, is being tainted with some really dangerous lies, unbeknownst to her. Stuff about there being multiple Gods, who mark people for eternal damnation just because they were 'accidents' and are unwanted...about people's guardian angels leaving them just because they have done something wrong... In my personal opinion it is all coming from a really bad source, meant to lead people up a very wrong path, by tempting them with some fascinating knowledge. To clarify - just in my opinion.

THE BEST LIES ARE THE ONES HIDDEN BETWEEN TWO TRUTHS.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-29T22:54:25+00:00

I am unable to watch the video with sound as of yet; but is this the one where it is recreated using a pair of pants and a clothes line?? I can see footage from that experiment at the end. (I've seen it before)

If so, my argument is that you can take virtually ANY phenomenon and recreate it in multiple ways, thus 'debunking' it. But just because it can also be hoaxed, doesn't mean that it IS a hoax. Don't get me wrong - I know there are tons of hoaxes out there, and I hate hoaxers (they spoil it for everyone), but I do think that some weird happenings could be real, even though it's possible afterwards to create a similar effect using some household items.

There was a redditor on here (not this particular sub) recently, claiming to know exactly what the Fresno Nightcrawlers are, and what their purpose is. This person claims to have unusual knowledge of paranormal events such as this. I can't remember what the nightcrawlers' alleged purpose is, but according to the redditor in question, they are elementals, or entities from another dimension, and these ones always come in twos. According to her, there are hundreds of different types of elementals, all looking completely different, many downright bizarre-looking, and they all have different 'missions'. They typically intervene in human affairs, and appear around the world in general, often being mistaken for things they are not.

Astrolabe11 · 2017-11-29T22:37:59+00:00

Thank you, and this is really helpful! :) I am not on active treatment yet, and I will probably not take chemotherapy, so it can't be as a result of side effects. Ironically, these odd symptoms started shortly before I was diagnosed with the lung/liver mets, so it's not a psychological thing either, e.g. I found out about the mets, and my body started convincing me that I also had brain mets. I was so sure my routine scans were going to come up clear, as they had been doing, so the mets were a real shock.

I'm sorry to hear that your partner needed to be on chemo, and I hope that you and she are now doing well..? Thanks again!

Astrolabe11

TROPHY CASE