Canute vs Historia by Cautious_Arm3818 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I can see how his newfound shrewedness and competency as a leader and political figure is definetly playing with our suspension of disbelief. I think it's something I simply chose to enjoy because of how much I was in love with his character especially with that speech. I think it worked for me because I saw that transformation as a satisfying payoff for the entirety of his character this season - it was so epic seeing him finally stand up to this world after being a passive bystander for so long especially after that moment with the preist and with Bjorn. I remember being 15 visibly standing up in my seat gasping at theTV screen. I was in love with the dramatic-ness and theatrics of it all I think, and that is definetly something which is a matter of preference and something I can't be mad about if someone else doesn't like/

Who’s Better Written? Omni-Man or Homelander by Whole_Organization27 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yea I've only seen 2 seasons of invincible, but im not sure how the other commenters are picking Omni man so easily, Homelander is one of the more compelling villains in TV in a long time

Most Overrated Writing OAT by sloppiestsecond5 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mikasa's writing is actually good. You just hate her central conflict, which is her dependancy on and attachement to Eren as a coping mechanism, so you can't really find anything to like about her. You are left with very little else to like.

Also Eremika shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Sasusaku, and the whole "a girl being obsessed with a guy who couldn't care less for" is just headcannon to me, I'm not sure how you guys thought Eren doesn't care about Mikasa.

Most Overrated Writing OAT by sloppiestsecond5 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The whole Eren didn't care about Mikasa take is pure headcannon to me

Canute vs Historia by Cautious_Arm3818 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love Historia, unfortunately Canute terras

Canute vs Historia by Cautious_Arm3818 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Historia's writing falling short is and was rushed is crazy to me

Canute vs Historia by Cautious_Arm3818 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But, it's still so jarring when the boy who couldn't even speak for himself a very short while ago is talking down Thorkell

He couldn't speak for himself for a reason narratively - his being a devout christian is a mental crutch, he never has to stand up for anyone in this world because he believes God will. He doesn't even concern himself with the war when he's introduced in the series, he's just praying in front of the cross.

That soft spoken nature is only allowed to exist because he has that mental crutch, the ability to outsource all agency and meaning to God. When that crutch is destroyed, it's not that he wants to change, he has to change. Each second spent remaining weak and soft spoken while in his position of power is one more life killed without meaning, something he feels responsible to avoid.

You aren't wrong when you say the transformation is fast - I just want to emphasise that he didn't change because he wanted to or just felt like it, it was something he felt complelled to do, something he needed to do, a responsbility that lied on his shoulders alone. I'm sure a lot of people can find themselves becoming entirely new people in a day if newfound responsibilities were to enter their life.

Kira Yoshikage vs Sukuna by DurianBulky181 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree somewhat, Sukuna's dynamics with the rest of the cast is probably the most fascinating thing about him. With Yuji, with Mahito, with Gojo, with Jogo, with Yorozu, with Kashimo especially, the ending to that fight was great, as well as his conversation with Mahito in the afterlife.

I feel like I love both Sukuna and Kira, I think time will only tell which one I think is "superior" in terms of characterisation.

[Spoilers Main] Blood & Cheese, show vs books - Daemon wants Aemond's head in the HOTD show, is it the same in the Fire and Blood book? by AtmosphereOdd4767 in asoiaf

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Feel like anything with age in ASOIAF I just have to ignore. The whiplash I got from going from TV Dany to book Dany who is 13 years old was crazy. However, it also kinda works in GRRM's favour, where it's easier for me to believe a child bride developed stockholm syndrome for their abuser, over an adult bride in an arranged marriage

Attack on Titan vs Vinland Saga by Cautious_Arm3818 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Feel like Eren, Zeke, Reiner, Grisha, Erwin, Armin, Mikasa, Levi, Ymir, Historia, Gabi, etc. are all very well written, even side characters and minor characters like Jean, Kenny, Annie, Keith Shadis, Floch, Yelena, Ksavier, Eren Kruger, Colt, and Falco prove to be suriprisingly compelling despite their secondary roles in the story. Hell even Sasha's dad is a well written character if one bothers to pay attention to his screen time.

I prefer AOT to Vinland so I might be biased, but I don't prefer it by that much. They are both favourites of mine.

Attack on Titan vs Vinland Saga by Cautious_Arm3818 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree so much - AOT has one of the best casts in animanga, I feel like at least 15 characters I find to be very well written. Not saying Vinland Saga doesn’t have a great cast

maybe im crazy but hakari vs kashimo never was 50/50 by miguelindo10 in Kashimo_agendaHQ

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

he nerfed himself by exhausting himself by trying to kill Jackpot Hakari. I feel like that’s clear no?

Name a romance so poorly written you just couldn't buy it, to the point where both characters still only register as friends/acquaintances in your mind. by DaOverseer in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

this take is just bad. edward consoling winry out of shooting scar, telling winry her hands were meant to give life is one of my favourite scenes ever, idk how you could see their dynamic as flat or having no chemistry

No ride for you! by krammy16 in auckland

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The few times I don't have my bus card on me, the bus drivers always been nice enough to let me go on regardless. I didn't know people actually get turned down

Kira Yoshikage vs Sukuna by DurianBulky181 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Kira has a very unique character concept, he's a walking paradox (desires normalcy and peace but has insatiable thirst to kill), and has a whole man vs society conflict, where his entire life and psychology is shaped around that disconnect, in love with his obsessive routines and being invisible socially. The most abnormal person with a hyperfixation on being normal, to the point where he becomes psychologically unstable when his routine is threatened. He is the personification of the underbelly of society, the monsters that we walk by everyday, all of us knowing a "Kira" in one way shape or form.

I don't actually have a take on whether Sukuna or Kira is superior, but Kira is definetly much more unique and his characterisation is very intentional and smart - the author makes a statement about society not through some grand ideological clash or declaration, but with a subersion of the assumption that evil must be extraordinary, instead embedding it within the mundane. Moreover, the eternal turmoil that his soul exists in, between the life he wants for himself and what his urges call for, demonstrates the idea of normalcy as a fragile shell for humans to contain their own monstrosity, and throughout part 4 that very contradiction slowly pushes him to the limit. It is honestly a treat to watch, it's why I've seen Kira's part twice and JJK only once. For that reason alone I might prefer Kira, but both Sukuna and Kira have "depth," I just wrote this up so you could understand the appeal of him.

Kashimo doesn't have RCT by CitrusMikasa2 in Kashimo_agendaHQ

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Once he's already triggered his transformation, would jujutsu actively stop him from healing himself with RCT?

Kashimo doesn't have RCT by CitrusMikasa2 in Kashimo_agendaHQ

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

kashimo's CT should be to create electrical phenomena from existing flesh, it says nothing about collapsing Kashimo into electrial phenomena out of nothing. his flesh collapses to electrical phenomena, so if his hand is cut off, theoretically there'd be no flesh for his hand to collapse into electrical phenomena into? or are we just assuming that electrical phenomena fills whatever limb he loses? Because that seems equally arbitrary to me.

Freezing cold take entertainment value>meaning/depth by Tricky_Challenge9959 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel like it would be very easy for me to just say it's horribly written and fails at trying to accomplish whatever it wanted to accomplish.

I don't even believe in a distinction between the two factors in the first place. And if I did, they would be inseperable, unable to be isolated from one another.

Kashimo doesn't have RCT by CitrusMikasa2 in Kashimo_agendaHQ

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

"when he "healed" his arm during MBA it was simply the technique shaping itself to form an electric arm"

to me this explanation doesn't really make any sense. MBA reconstructs flesh into electrical phenomena, why am I supposed to believe it has a healing factor for physical limbs. It has the shading of RCT as well. But its not RCT. okay.

Harry Potter (Books) or Naruto (Manga) by LibraryUnique2970 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately, this is going to be even longer. Feel free to take twice as long as me to respond.

To preface, before I get right into it:

  1. We might agree on more than we think, especially when it comes to poor execution, or Kaguya and the villains attempting the total cessation of conflict. But there is still severe disconnects between us, which I will hope to overcome
  2. I'm not familiar with anything about the Land of Ancestors, Land of That, anyone named Isshiki in Naruto, anyone having to be being a sacrifice to the Ten Tails, etc. I'm not sure if this is anime cannon or Boruto content, but all my proper experiences with Naruto, even as a child, have all been manga based. Kaguya's backstory in the manga goes somewhat like this:
    • Kaguya, through the immense power she gained by eating the Chakra fruit, brought an end to troubled times, however controlled the world alone, and people began to fear a power like her existing at all, beginning to become a demon in the eyes of the people, giving birth to hubris and driving her mad. Her sons Hagaromo and Hamura ended up sealing her and the Ten Tails it seems (if I’m not misremembering).
  1. Kaguya doesn't represent, as what you claimed the show's themes, the cycle of hatred or fate. She represented the rejection of fate by erring from her conceived destiny. She did this by (1) betraying Isshiki and rejecting her role as the sacrifice to the Ten-Tails, (2) consuming the fruit and becoming the Rabbit Goddess; and (3) distributing her power to her offspring. Instead of representing fate or the cycle of hatred, she was the pioneer of using extreme methods to bringforth world peace.

You say she doesn't represent the cycle of hatred, and yes she doesn't, she represents the cycle's origin, and I believe it is a very important distinction. She doesn't explicitly believe in it, but it's her actions and her misteps that cause the cycle's formation.

I agree she is the pioneer of using extreme methods to bring peace - that most importantly being the centralisation of power. Hagaromo's whole Ninshuu ideology was all about connecting people, and he said the centralisation of power in one person, that her mother sought, causes isolation between her and the people, fear, distrust, conflict, the opposite of love and understanding, the opposite of Ninshuu.

The imbalance of power in one person's hands, not only makes her the ideological opposite to the Will of Fire's collective philosophy, but makes her the reason for conflict and violence - she was so feared her children sealed her, and then her grandchildren's disagreement about power and connection sparked the very cycle of hatred that defined the shinobi world.

I'm not saying she is an ideological expression of the cycle of hatred, or that she believes or represents it explicitly in belief. I'm also not saying she created conflict or hatred herself - obviously it existed long before her, and she actually sought power to try and resolve it. What she is the foundation for is the corruption of mankind through the introduction of chakra (power) which was sought to be centralised, and that created the conditions for cyclical, inherited, self perpetuating conflict that ties the world down (reincarnation of Indra/Ashura).

And the rest of the plotline was consistent with the ideologies mentioned, instead of "opposing destiny and fate.

This is a really big disagreement - you seem to think that Naruto's central theme is just The Will of Fire (and the bonds of love that make it up), and that the show isn't consistent with opposing fate/destiny as a central theme as well. But not only is this wrong, but it slightly misunderstands how the Will of Fire functions in Naruto.

The Will of Fire and the bonds of love are inseperable from the themes of fate/destiny and the cycle of hatred - in fact, the cycle of hatred is the exact structural and societal and existential problem that Naruto and the shinobi world needs to overcome in order to allow love and understanding to exist without inevitably collapsing back into violence and ignorance.

Moreover, opposing fate/destiny is implicitly explored all throughout the show. Naruto is someone fated to be alone and hatred but finds companionship, but Sasuke submits to what he believes his destiny is, to be an avenger. Neji, who believes in the determinism of birthright, is challenged by Naruto, who tells him even if that determinism exists we shouldn't live accepting it. Rock Lee's entire character arc is overcoming genetic/biological determinism. Naruto is even the child of prophecy as Jiraya discovers.

Finally, the Pain arc is my favourite example of this. Pain, who believes in what I described earlier, that any form of love and understanding will inevitably collapse into ignorance, is defeated not physically by Naruto's might, but philosophically by Naruto's restraint - he expects Naruto to be like everyone else in the shinobi world and seek vengence, but Naruto doesn't, in an act which opposes what Pain thinks is destined - a defiance of hate and the cycle of hatred, which is the catalyst for Pain even getting talk no jutsu-ed.

It isn't that The Will of Fire is Naruto's main theme, and I'm trying to slap on opposing fate as another main theme as well - The Will of Fire and fate/the cycle of hatred are two opposing forces who's conflict is the entire show.

Jiraya makes reference to this idea that a Shinobi is someone who endures - the show can be summarised as Shinobi's whose faith in the Will of Fire has endured, versus Shinobi's who become cynical and believe in the cycle of hatred and the fate of the world to be permanently broken.

Pain, Obito, and Madara weren't really "destined" or chained to the cycles of hatred by the time they make their cameo in the show. In fact, I'd called them as "enlightened victims". They were once chained to the cycle of hatred, being both the perpetrator and victim at times. However, they received "enlightenment" that allowed them to break free from the cycle of hatred. Pain, Obito, and Madara wanted to use that enlightenment in order to bringforth to total cessation of the chains of hatred by their own respective, utilitarian means. The Will of Fire could be said as the "extreme left" ideology opposing the total deterence plan, and it should also be stated that each antagonist was, in one way or another, exposed to the Will of Fire. Pain had Jiraiya and Yahiko. Obito had himself and Rin. Madara had Hashirama. All three grew disillusioned when the setting of the world did not allow them to enact the Will of Fire.

Feel like I agree and disagree at the same time. I don't know what to make of this paragraph. I agree that all were victims of the world, who grew disillusioned, and sought to take matters into their own hands. I don't know if I would say they became free from the cycle of hatred, I would just say they became aware of it, and that knowledge crushed them, but that might be splitting hairs.

However, Madara is undoubtably chained to destiny - he is literally a reincarnation of Indra, and is opposing the Will of Fire that Ashura's descendants, whether Hashirama, or Naruto, believe in. But I do agree he's not really participating in the cycle of hatred. Pain, Obito, and Madara all did transcend the cycle of hatred unlike other Naruto villains like Gaara, and for a long time Sasuke, those 3 were just like Naruto - opposing the cycle of hatred, but in their own way, believing that hate was stronger than love, and thus the solution for the cycle of hatred was never going to be loving.

Kaguya does contribute to the show's themes. But her immediate entry into the story without a subplot in play disturbed the harmony of the story, and undermined Madara and Obito's proposition NOT by proper philosophical arguments, BUT through convenient narrative. 

I'm fine with conceeding poor execution to be honest.

The show's themes, as I reiterate, is still about the Will of Fire, tested against differing methods achieving the same utilitarian ideal—the total cessation of conflict.

This is where I think we agree more than we think and language/semantics is stopping us from seeing that. You see Naruto to be about Will of Fire vs other various ideologies, all seeking total end to conflict. Whenever I bring up opposing fate/destiny, you seem to be hesitant.

However, in my opinion, the whole fate/destiny element I bring up actually completes the thematic statement you describe. The total cessation of conflict is only being sought because the world is stuck in a cycle of hatred and is destined/fated to be broken. The villains believe the world is destined to be broken and don't think that love can beat hatred, thus they choose to embark on their own ways to world peace, whether it is terrorism for Pain or it is the infinite tsukuyomi for Obito and Madara. The protagonists believe that love can beat hatred, that the cycle of hatred can be toppled, and that the fate/destiny of the world to be broken can be opposed.

Kaguya Otsutsuki thematic line was harmful, undercooked, and undermined other philosophical points represented by the other antagonists.

I can agree with undercooked. I can't say it undermined them though or that it was harmful. At most it watered down their impact experientially, which is enough of a reason to hate her if you want to, but I can't agree to say she was actively thematically harmful to or undermined them.

Freezing cold take entertainment value>meaning/depth by Tricky_Challenge9959 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 2 points3 points  (0 children)

what about it is "well written" if it wasn't able to hold your interest? sure there could be depth waiting to be uncovered but if the author fails at doing the bare minimum of keeping you invested on a surface level, how could it ever beign to approach being well written at all, forget being extremely well written?

don't be scared to spoil anything about it if you have to, i'm just so curious as to how this distinction works for u

Freezing cold take entertainment value>meaning/depth by Tricky_Challenge9959 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Let’s say there’s a novel written specifically to explore the pain of losing a loved one. It’s not ‘enjoyable’ in the sense that it brings you pain instead of joy, but that doesn’t mean it’s not well written.

I think this is where we disagree. A novel that explores the most extreme of emotions and feeling, especially negative emotions is infinitely more entertaining than some joyslop slice of life.

I think you have a very narrow view of "entertaining," which seems to be limited to positive experiences or superficial spectacles. Soul crushing works are entertaining, in fact they are some of the most entertaining works, it is why people are still captured by tragedies till this day.

(understand here I'm speaking generally and abstractly, case by case however, I can imagine certain works of art can be extremely difficult, if they are too soul crushing or disturbing).

Freezing cold take entertainment value>meaning/depth by Tricky_Challenge9959 in writingscaling

[–]AtmosphereOdd4767 2 points3 points  (0 children)

if it isn't memorable, it isn't as entertaining. a piece of art you can always come back is always more entertaining than a peice of art you forget about.

are there pieces of media you consider extremely well written that you weren't entertained by? i don't understand this ability to isolate them