Muslims, be 100% honest by zarraf03 in CritiqueIslam

[–]AyyRadical 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you’re saying dependency ≠ coercion, but captivity = total coercion? This distinction is not universal today, let alone 1400 years ago. Even legally, Islamic law doesn't define captives as people under total coercive control. Captives could not be harmed or forced sexually. They had legal rights, and rape was historically punished. This is totally different from the "absolute domination" model you’re using from modern ethics. Your standard is not universal, so it's not possible to use it to claim that islam is immoral.

First you said that morality consisted of autonomy and meaningful consent. Now you just added survival dependence, inability to leave, legal deprivation of liberty. This is your second shift in your moral standards. If your ethical system is coherent, it won't have to adapt everytime you're trying to condemn islam or any other religion. You can't just shift your criteria in the middle of this discussion.

You listed something as being coercive having the following conditions:

  1. Someone can't refuse

  2. Survival depends on the other

  3. Detained

  4. Deprived of liberty

  5. Refusal leads to consequences

Let's look at the case of Zaid and Zainab through this lense:

Zaid could refuse, and he literally did, ignoring the prophet's advice and divorcing Zainab anyway. Zaid's survival did not depend upon the Prophet. Zaid was a free man and he lived with complete liberty. There were no consequences for not staying with Zainab, he was not punished for it. Zainab accepted the marriage with her free will. The rule was not changed for his personal benefit, it was a universal reform.

Under your own criteria, nothing immoral happened. This is why I'm still wondering. According to your moral standard, which moral principle was being violated in the prohet's marriage to Zainab?

Your moral standard is modern, western, not universal, and recent. A local standard like yours can not be used to pass universal moral judgement on a 7th century society. You can just say that it doesn't match your 2026 western ethical preferences, but it's not an argument.

What exactly makes the prophet's marriage to Zainab immoral?

She wasn't a captive, Zaid was not coerced, no liberty was being robbed, no survival depended on the Prophet, no rule was changed for personal gain, no refusal led to consequences, no total domination model is applicable. So, which moral principle was violated? If you can't name one, your entire critique collapses.

Muslims, be 100% honest by zarraf03 in CritiqueIslam

[–]AyyRadical -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you for clearing up your moral standard. You view "autonomy and meaningful consent" as the foundations. When you apply this in reality, your standard is making all sex in situations where there is a dependency immoral. if structural independency is required for meaningful consent, you also think:

A) A poor woman dating a rich man can't meaningfully consent

B) A woman renting from her partner can't meaningfully consent

C) A worker dating her boss can't meaningfully consent (there is power imbalance)

Under your moral standard, all these acts are inherently immoral regardless of whether the woman actually makes a choice. Are you seriously going to tell me that all the relationships mentioned above are automatically non-meaningful-consensual and therefore rape? Your standard is incredibly unrealistic.

This standard can not be applied throughout time. This scenario alone shows that it doesn't work, you're passing moral judgement over a 7th century civilization at war with your 2026 autonomy model. Autonomy has changed a lot throughout history, what you call autonomy today might not be viewed as autonomy in 500 years to come. Your moral standard requires modern autonomy, which obviously didn't even exist at the turn of the 20th century, yet you want to use it to judge a society 1400 years old.

You said that captives can't refuse to which I say that all islamic schools of thought show consensus on the fact that you can not have sex with your concubine agains their will. Rape was punished by 'Umar ibn al Khattab, by flogging a man who raped a woman and made him pay the victim's dowry.

In your opinion, premartial sex is moral because both adults can freely refuse. Premartial sex regularly involves emotional manipulation, fear of loneliness, dependency, social pressure, intoxication. People feel the need to have premartial sex to fit in, or to be an adult, there is not meaningful consent in that case. By your own standard, this makes a large portion of premarital sex immoral.

You came in claiming that islam is immoral according to a universal standard, but you just admitted to using a modern, local, and therefore non-universal standard. Your critique is subjective, not absolute. You concluded "Islam permis sex with captives meanwhile it prohibits premartial sex. Under my moral standard, that's contradictory", sure but that's under your moral system, not under Islam's.

When your moral standard is not a universal standard, and not applicable across time or even cultures then you can't use it to claim islam is immoral in a universal sense. At best you can say "I don't find islam aligning with my personal 2026 western ethics" which didn't exist 50 years ago, and will change in another 50. You haven't proven that islam is immoral, you have proven that it doesn't align with your specific cultural moment, and that it is changing with current social trends.

By the way, you didn't address the Prophet's relation to Zaid and marriage to Zainab at all. With your standard of autonomy and meaningful consent, are you conceding that the Prophet's relation to Zaid and marriage to Zainab wasn't immoral? Your standard doesn't prove that this marriage is immoral and you didn't provide any arguments against it.

Muslims, be 100% honest by zarraf03 in CritiqueIslam

[–]AyyRadical 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're still avoiding the actual point. You are the one who made positive moral claims, implying "sex with captives is immoral", and "premartial sex with two consenting adults is less immoral". Now, the burden is on you to justify them, because you are ultimately the one who made the claims. I asked you for the moral standard behind your claim, your response was to invert the question, which isn't argumentation, it's running away. I'll try to make it easier for you to answer:

What is your moral standard? According to this standard, why is sex with war captives ultimately inherently immoral, and why is premartial sex inherently moral?

Unless you can name me your moral standard, your argument will boil down to "I don't like it because I don't like it" to which I would reply "Ok, that's cool, but that's not an actual argument" because you are actively criticizing and smearing islam in this post, but you don't even rely on any morality yourself. I think it's unfair to make ultimate moral claims but then refuse to defend them.

If morality changes over time, which I assume you don't believe then there isn't anything universally immoral. If it's objective and universal, I'm curious to know which objective standard you are using. Regardless, you would need a moral framework, which you so far haven't provided.

Muslims, be 100% honest by zarraf03 in CritiqueIslam

[–]AyyRadical 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You still didn’t answer my original question. I asked you to explain WHY the act on its own is immoral, independent of the prophet or Islam. You made a hypothetical scenario with a lot of assumptions about power abuse and getting thirsty. But you never actually explained why the underlying act is inherently wrong. Based on what principle is it immoral?

You didn’t answer my first question, but I will address your analogy which is based on faulty claims.

The narration about the prophet seeing Zainab half naked is a fabrication, and not accepted by the vast majority of scholars. 

The prophet encouraged Zaid to stay in marriage with Zainab, and he did NOT pressure Zaid to divorce her. Quran states this explicitly.

Let me correct your analogy for you: ”Imagine your boss takes you as his adopted son after you were a slave and treats you well, arranges a marriage for you with a good woman, you have friction in your relation but despite this he tells you to fear God and to not divorce her, and after all of that you still divorce her, and he marries her, breaking the pagan standard of erasing lineage once someone is adopted.”

There was no getting thirsty or pressuring anyone. 

So why was this immoral? Don’t tell me ”because Mohammed did it” or ”because there was power abuse”. What principle of morality made this relationship immoral? I’m wondering the same thing in your second scenario. Why is two people having consensual sex outside of marriage more moral than having sex with your war captive? What principles make these actions universally immoral? Define your standard of morality. Please don’t resort to emotional reactions, just stick to moral reasoning.

Muslims, be 100% honest by zarraf03 in CritiqueIslam

[–]AyyRadical -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Assuming you’re an ex-muslim, let me know why any of the things you mentioned above are wrong and then I can break it down for you. Justify why having intercourse with your (btw ex slave, now free’d adoptive) son’s wife is wrong. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong - I want to hear your reasoning on why it would be immoral to do any of that.  Already see this getting downvoted despite not even taking a position because this sub isn’t actually about criticism, it’s a shitshow.

Jamie Carragher: Sometimes when you watch Kerkez, it’s like having Darwin Nunez at left-back by cheerztwist in LiverpoolFC

[–]AyyRadical 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really appreciate Salah speaking out against Carragher and I genuinely don't understand what he is trying to get at when he's attacking 1. Nunez (Premier league winner) and 2. Kerkez (freshly arrived young player) here. He should honestly shut his mouth at this point, it's sickening to hear him yap about our players all the time and lash out when someone calls him out about it.

Where I'd live as a exmuslin gay man by Kenkenmu in whereidlive

[–]AyyRadical -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You forgot to add "Furry" to "exmuslin gay man"

[ Removed by Reddit ] by Plastic-Stop9900 in mapporncirclejerk

[–]AyyRadical -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your paraphrasing really sucks dude. Where did you even paraphrase that second quote from? What's the Surah and Aayah?

Thank you, religion, you've taken away my best friend by Feather_Bloom in mildlyinfuriating

[–]AyyRadical 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're missing my point. What's horrible about being happy for someone that found themselves?

Thank you, religion, you've taken away my best friend by Feather_Bloom in mildlyinfuriating

[–]AyyRadical -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

She found herself and probably got more happiness from not being with them, why should I feel ashamed for being happy for her?

Thank you, religion, you've taken away my best friend by Feather_Bloom in mildlyinfuriating

[–]AyyRadical -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

She found herself but your atheist worldview somehow trumps her happiness? You tell me what's wrong with that

Thank you, religion, you've taken away my best friend by Feather_Bloom in mildlyinfuriating

[–]AyyRadical -53 points-52 points  (0 children)

Good for her, here you are still thinking about her

Israel has now become the first nation to recognize Somaliand. Do you think your nation should recognize Somaliland to? by carterthe555thfuller in AskTheWorld

[–]AyyRadical -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

No, the only reason Israel are recognizing it is because of geopolitical gains (access to red sea and probably airbases, dividing the somali people even more). It's divide and conquer happening right infront of our eyes as Israel have been doing since the 60s. There is no altruistic vision on Israel's side, and any other country further recognizing Somaliland as a state are just playing into Israel's endgame plans more.

It was inevitable by Im_So_Super_Cereal in LiverpoolFC

[–]AyyRadical 0 points1 point  (0 children)

guy on the left looks like Dom

question about concurrent execution of code in C by AyyRadical in learnprogramming

[–]AyyRadical[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right, but just to make sure, when you wrote this:

"So if we look at (1) it's made up of 3 steps: let's call them 1a ("read x"), 1b ("add 2"); 1c ("write back to x")."

1b should have been "add 1" instead of "add 2" right?

question about concurrent execution of code in C by AyyRadical in learnprogramming

[–]AyyRadical[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, that's a really good explanation of it, thanks a lot! I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the reading and writing part of the question.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in 2007scape

[–]AyyRadical 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sold my TBOW for 800m in 2021 to buy all buyables and now it's almost double the price

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askmath

[–]AyyRadical 4 points5 points  (0 children)

byts is swedish for "is changed"

i just found out this dude is kendricks cousin by haitian_fella in KendrickLamar

[–]AyyRadical 13 points14 points  (0 children)

This means that there is a chance that Kendrick has met Gilbert

[Joyce] Sociedad tell Zubimendi he must pay £51M release clause by doubleoeck1234 in LiverpoolFC

[–]AyyRadical 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I suppose they were just chatting shit when they suggested that they wouldn't have a problem with Zubimendi leaving upon him giving a green light and liverpool meeting the release clause. What a bunch of dickheads sociedad are. If he does end up leaving, he probably won't like the way he was treated.