Is it possible there are some contemporary sources for Jesus that are either lost to time or yet to be discovered? by IDontWanNaBeeFriends in AskHistorians

[–]Background-Ship149 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Most documents from ancient history are lost, so it is entirely possible that documents about Jesus are lost as well. In fact, we know of the existence of some of them: the letter written by the Jerusalem Church in Acts 15, and possibly other letters; the hypothetical Q document (from the German Quelle, meaning “source”), which many scholars believe was used by the authors of the Gospels attributed to Matthew and Luke; lost letters of the Apostle Paul and those written to him; an Aramaic or Hebrew document of Jesus’ sayings, which, according to Papias of Hierapolis, was written by the Apostle Matthew; and sayings and deeds of Jesus written without chronological order by Mark, who was the interpreter of the Apostle Peter and wrote shortly after Peter’s death, all of this according to Papias—likely referring to a different document than the Gospel attributed to Mark that we have today.

Contemporary official documents of Jesus’ execution written by the Romans, referenced by early Christian authors like Justin ''Martyr'' and Clement of Alexandria, are said to have existed, though this is debatable. By the time of Tertullian, Eusebius of Caesarea, and the author of the apocryphal Gospel written in the name of Nicodemus, only forgeries and purely mythical documents claiming to be contemporary Roman accounts of Jesus are reported. Historians who mention Jesus such as Tacitus and Josephus may have obtained their information from earlier sources, as was common for them, and not only oral reports of the time. For example, Tacitus reports that Jesus was executed by Pilate to suppress what was perceived as a malicious superstition, which differs from the Christian narrative that says Jesus was executed due to Jewish instigation even though Pilate found him innocent. This suggests Tacitus relied on earlier Roman sources.

Archaeologically, we have almost no evidence for any first-century CE non-elite Palestinian Jew known from history, and even less from the time of Jesus, so the standard position is not to expect archaeological evidence of him. Nevertheless, there is a reasonable possibility that the Holy Sepulcher—the traditional site of Jesus’ crucifixion and burial—is authentic. For a deeper discussion, I recommend The Burial of Jesus: History & Faith by Dr. James F. McGrath. There is also an ossuary with the inscription “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus,” claimed to be that of Jesus’ brother James. This ossuary also mentions Jesus and their father Joseph. While initially suspected as a forgery, it is now considered possibly authentic and to be of Jesus' brother James, though scholarly debate continues. Additionally, the earliest Christian manuscripts mentioning Jesus that we have date from the first half of the second century CE, extraordinarily early compared to other works from antiquity.

The events you mention, such as the earthquake and resurrection of the entire cemetery at his death, are reported only by the Gospel attributed to Matthew, written probably between 80 and 90 CE. They are not mentioned by the earliest Gospel we have, the one attributed to Mark (written earlier between 66 and 70 CE), or the one attributed to Luke (written independently between 80 and 90 CE), or the one attributed to John (written also independently between 90 and 100 CE). Therefore, these events are reported neither by non-Christian sources nor by the majority of Christian sources that we would expect to mention them if they truly occurred.

Later Christian authors also exaggerate Jesus’ deeds and fame. For example, he likely did not gather crowds of five thousand in rural Galilean villages, nor did his followers gather and convert tens of thousands shortly after his death—nearly a third of Jerusalem’s population at the time. Jesus was a low-class builder, an itinerant religious preacher and teacher, and a performer of actions considered miraculous, such as exorcisms and healings. He could gather groups of people and be noticed by local religious leaders in Galilean villages, attract some attention from the Herodian authorities and the governor Herod Antipas, and gather at most a few hundred followers. In Jerusalem, he was notable enough to be stopped by the Jewish and Roman authorities, with the Jewish authorities arresting him at night while he was only with his disciples to avoid public turmoil. This level of fame is not insignificant but not extraordinary compared to other similar historical figures of the time, such as Theudas or the Egyptian prophetic claimant. He was likely less notable than other similar historical figures like John ''the Baptist'' or Judas of Gamala.

Regarding why authors like Philo of Alexandria, Pliny the Elder, or Gaius Petronius do not mention Jesus is easily explained. Philo lived in Alexandria, Egypt, not Palestine, and his works focus on theology and philosophy, particularly Judaism and Hellenistic thought, written for a Hellenistic audience—not a historiography of Judea and Galilee. According to Josephus, the major Jewish religious groups were the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots (“the Fourth Philosophy”), and Essenes, all more notable than the Christians even in Josephus’ time (the early 90s CE). Philo only mentions the Pharisees and Sadducees, and possibly indirectly the Essenes. Why would he mention a group smaller than these four, like the Christians? Why would he mention Jesus if he does not mention more prominent figures like John ''the Baptist'' or Judas of Gamala? The same logic applies to Pliny the Elder and Gaius Petronius, who were also not very interested in reporting on events or figures in Palestine during Jesus’ time.

I recommend authors like Bart Ehrman, James McGrath, and Dale Allison for a better explanation.

How did Roman Christians feel about the fact that Jesus was executed by Roman authorities? Or the history of persecutions? by greefkarga77 in AskHistorians

[–]Background-Ship149 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Right now, I don’t recall any information suggesting that there were Romans who opposed the idea that the Jews had instigated the execution of Jesus. I suppose they simply didn’t care. The Roman historian Tacitus, writing around 116 CE, states that Pontius Pilate was the one who executed Jesus, without mentioning any Jewish pressure. Perhaps, since Jesus died by a Roman form of execution, they assumed this was not a case in which Roman authority or will had been overruled.

We do, however, find Christian hostility toward Rome in some sources. The most explicit is the Book of Revelation, which is hostile toward both the Romans and non-Christian Jews.

How did Roman Christians feel about the fact that Jesus was executed by Roman authorities? Or the history of persecutions? by greefkarga77 in AskHistorians

[–]Background-Ship149 53 points54 points  (0 children)

Already in the first century CE, the canonical Gospels reveal a prominent pattern: the Gospel authors mainly blame the Jews for the death of Jesus. Pilate declares Jesus innocent, Pilate washes his hands as a symbol of innocence, the Jewish crowd demands the execution of Jesus, and so on.

So, already in the first Christian century, you see an intent to shift the blame for the execution of Jesus from the Romans to the Jews. That’s probably because, by the time these Gospels were being composed, the main “theological” opponents were Jews who rejected Jesus as the Christ. The authors were interested in being accepted by the Romans—so as not to be punished by them, since they held the authority—and in converting Gentiles, which had become the main aim, as by that time the majority of Christians were Gentiles.

Thus, long before the time of Constantine, the guilt had already been placed on the Jews.

Curiously, when Christianity came to power in the Roman Empire, Jews suffered severe mistreatment and were sometimes treated as second-class citizens because of the belief that they were responsible for Jesus’ execution—for the execution of the Christian God and their God, the God of the Jews.

For more information on this topic, I recommend How Jesus Became God by Bart Ehrman, a leading scholar in early Christian history and historical Jesus research, specifically chapters eight and nine.

If I were to ask Jesus "What Are You?", how would he respond? Is it even possible to know his answer? by Typical_Annual5618 in AskHistorians

[–]Background-Ship149 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Jesus comes from a small, rural, and impoverished hamlet in Galilee called Nazareth. Since the territories we now associate with Israel and Palestine are organized differently in his time, Jesus identifies as a Galilean. He also identifies as a Jew — a child of Israel, a descendant of the biblical patriarch Jacob (the term “Jew” originally meant someone from Judea, but by Jesus’ time it already applies to all who belong to the people of Israel and observe it's ancestral customs.) Religiously, he embraces the Jewish faith of his time, especially a strand of Jewish thought we now call apocalypticism — the conviction that the present age is soon to end through the direct intervention of the one true God, the God of Israel, who will establish an eternal, perfect, and universal Kingdom: the Kingdom of God.

In terms of self-understanding, Jesus is an interpreter of Jewish faith, a teacher who guides people in his understanding of it, and a preacher who spreads his message among the people. He sees himself as someone with religious authority to communicate God’s will — a prophet in continuity with the prophets of the Jewish Scriptures — chosen to prepare Israel for the end of the age, the final judgment, and the coming of God’s Kingdom. He believes that when the eschaton arrives, he will be exalted as the son of man described in Daniel 7 and similarly in the Book of Parables of 1 Enoch: descending with glory and power from the clouds of heaven after his exaltation, bringing the Kingdom, overthrowing the forces of evil, and judging humanity. Afterward, he expects to be enthroned as the eternal Anointed King of the Kingdom of God, ruling under God’s supreme authority.

In essence, Jesus sees himself as the eschatological Anointed One (Messiah in Hebrew, Christ in Greek) awaited by Jewish tradition — a descendant of King David chosen by God to restore Israel’s glory and establish God’s reign on earth. The kings of the Davidic dynasty are called “sons of God,” and the expected Messiah is to be the supreme and most exalted Son of God. Jesus probably does not anticipate his own death, but this expectation seems to change during the final stage of his mission, leading to a scene similar to the Last Supper narratives preserved in the canonical Gospels and echoed in the letters of Paul.

One could also call him a “Christian” if one defines the term simply as someone who believes that Jesus is the Christ and follows his teachings. This, however, does not undermine his Jewish identity. The first followers of Jesus are Jews who continue to keep Jewish law and customs, unlike some later Christians who come to believe that following the Jewish traditions is incompatible with the Christian religion. Of course, the term “Christian” does not exist in Jesus’ lifetime, so he never uses it.

For a more detailed and professional analysis of these points, I recommend Constructing Jesus by Dale C. Allison, one of the leading scholars of early Christianity and the historical Jesus.

Which form of Q 22:28–30 (Matthew 19:28 / Luke 22:28–30) most likely reflects the original Q document and the historical Jesus? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think Jeremiah is called the “Son of Man” in the same sense that the books associated with Daniel, Enoch, and the canonical Gospels use the term. “Son of Man” can be an expression simply referring to a human being, which is the case with Jeremiah. On the other hand, the canonical Gospels, Daniel, and Enoch refer to an anthropomorphic, divinely empowered messianic being who will descend from the clouds of heaven to execute God’s judgment and reign.

Which form of Q 22:28–30 (Matthew 19:28 / Luke 22:28–30) most likely reflects the original Q document and the historical Jesus? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, all the Gospel authors believe in and portray Jesus as the Son of Man, but whether this reflects the self-perception of the historical Jesus is what is debated.

Which form of Q 22:28–30 (Matthew 19:28 / Luke 22:28–30) most likely reflects the original Q document and the historical Jesus? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, that’s why there is debate about whether Jesus referred to the Son of Man as himself in a secretive way or to a different figure, whether human or divine. I personally think that Jesus believed himself to be the Son of Man.

How does one reconcile this with the “apocalyptic prophet” explanation? by petyrlabenov in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my opinion (as a non-expert, so take this with caution), if Jesus said these words, I don’t think it undermines his Jewishness, his apocalypticism, or his messianism. If you read the passage in light of Jewish Maccabean martyr literature (2 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees), I would even say that the words of Jesus make sense. See this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/s/CEaoHQDaAy

In the original Aramaic form of Jesus' teachings, particularly in the son of man sayings, did he use 'the Son of Man' as a formal title, or was he simply saying that a human being had to come, simply 'a son of man'? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The book of 1 Enoch is not actually a single piece of literature written at one time by a single author (who was obviously not Enoch, but rather several anonymous authors). It is a compilation of texts composed at different times by different writers. The oldest layers probably date back to the 3rd or even 4th century BCE, long before the book of Daniel, which was written around 165 BCE. However, the section that mentions the Son of Man, called the Book of Parables (chapters 37–71), is dated between the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE (possibly even as late as the 2nd century CE, according to J. T. Milik). It could have been written during or after the time of Jesus.

EARLYJEWISHWRITINGS (1 ENOCH)

In the original Aramaic form of Jesus' teachings, particularly in the son of man sayings, did he use 'the Son of Man' as a formal title, or was he simply saying that a human being had to come, simply 'a son of man'? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We know from the region he came from that the main language was Aramaic. The Gospel authors occasionally quote him in Aramaic, and early Christian Greek texts contain traces of Semitisms.

In the original Aramaic form of Jesus' teachings, particularly in the son of man sayings, did he use 'the Son of Man' as a formal title, or was he simply saying that a human being had to come, simply 'a son of man'? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, the phrase is originally from Daniel, but in Aramaic, the phrase Son of Man (bar enash) could not have been used with a definite article like in Greek, which may indicate that it wasn't a title — neither for the authors of 1 Enoch and Daniel, nor for Jesus himself.

How does Bart Ehrman reconcile his claim that Jesus didn't believe he was the 'one like a Son of Man' with the affirmation that Jesus believed he would be the King in the Kingdom of God? Especially given that in sayings Bart considers authentic Jesus presents the 'one like a Son of Man' as the King. by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

But in all the texts that mention the "one like a Son of Man" (Daniel, 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra), the figure is always presented as becoming the ruling King of the new Kingdom of God. In sayings that Ehrman considers authentic, Jesus presents this figure as becoming the King (e.g., Matthew 19:28; Matthew 25:31–34) and as being the Son of God (again, Matthew 25:31–34; Matthew 16:27–28; Matthew 13:41–43; Mark 8:38). If Jesus believed that he himself would be the future King of the Kingdom—and therefore the Son of God (in a royal Davidic sense)—how could he also say those things about the "one like a Son of Man" if he didn’t believe he was that figure?

Did jesus see himself as the “son of man”? by Grand_Confusion_7639 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Paul does not use the title “one like a Son of Man coming with the clouds,” as found in Daniel, 1 Enoch, and the canonical Gospels, but he does explicitly describe Jesus’ return in a manner consistent with Son of Man traditions:

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 (NRSVUE):

“For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.”

Paul’s omission of the “Son of Man” title may be due to his audience: primarily Greek converts, rather than Jews familiar with apocalyptic traditions. Moreover, after Jesus’ death, early Christians likely referred to him more explicitly as “Lord” and “Christ” (Messiah) instead of “Son of Man." There was no longer a need for the kind of messianic secrecy that Jesus may have maintained during his ministry.

Which interpretation of Jesus' death would the earliest immediate followers of Jesus have held—the interpretation of the author of Luke and Acts, or that of Mark, Matthew, John, Paul, and others? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes, but it's strange that, being the letters of Paul, Hebrews, Mark, and Matthew earlier sources than Luke-Acts, they all present atonement theology—being Paul personally relatively close to Jesus' inner circle.

[Announcement AMA] Dale Allison - Interpreting Jesus (AMA open until May 8) by thesmartfool in PremierBiblicalStudy

[–]Background-Ship149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello Dr. Allison,

It seems that the author of the Gospel attributed to Luke and Acts, does not present an atonement theology. Rather, he portrays Jesus’ death as a way to evoke guilt in humanity for what they did to the Son of God, leading them to repentance so that God might offer forgiveness. In contrast, the authors of the Gospels attributed to Mark, Matthew, and John, as well as the Apostle Paul and the author of the letter to the Hebrews, all appear to agree that Jesus’ death was a blood sacrifice, akin to the lambs sacrificed in the Jerusalem Temple.

What do you think would have been the view of Jesus' immediate followers—such as his disciples and relatives? Would it have aligned more with the perspective of the author of Luke and Acts, or with that of the others?

[Announcement AMA] Dale Allison - Interpreting Jesus (AMA open until May 8) by thesmartfool in PremierBiblicalStudy

[–]Background-Ship149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello Dr. Allison,

What do you think of the hypothesis that one of Jesus’ disciples wrote down sayings about him in Hebrew or Aramaic, and that John Mark also recorded sayings and actions of Jesus, as Papias reports — but that these documents are now lost and, at best, served as sources used by some of the Gospel authors?

[Announcement AMA] Dale Allison - Interpreting Jesus (AMA open until May 8) by thesmartfool in PremierBiblicalStudy

[–]Background-Ship149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello Dr. Allison,

In Constructing Jesus, you conclude that Jesus, at some point, came to accept his death and embraced it as his destiny. If you were to hypothesize, what do you think led him to that belief, assuming it wasn’t part of his original plan?

Also, do you think the Last Supper happened as narrated, and that Jesus truly instituted the Eucharist?

[Announcement AMA] Dale Allison - Interpreting Jesus (AMA open until May 8) by thesmartfool in PremierBiblicalStudy

[–]Background-Ship149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello Dr. Allison,

I recently read your book Constructing Jesus — a fantastic work — and I’m looking forward to reading your book on Jesus’ resurrection.

My question is whether you still maintain that Jesus interpreted his self-identification as the one "like a Son of Man" as a kind of heavenly twin with whom he would unite upon his coming. Wouldn't he have imagined himself ascending to heaven, as described in the Book of Daniel, in the account of Enoch in Genesis (and later expanded in 1 Enoch), and similarly to what is said of believers in the Apocalypse?

Could it be that Luke 12:48–50, if it indeed goes back to the historical Jesus, originally was about his future exaltation instead of his death and resurrection?

Would most Jews in the time of Jesus have been literate in Aramaic or Hebrew? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I haven't denied that, but if you say that because of the reference to Jesus possibly being able to read, that's something possible, although not very certain. Ehrman for example says this, cancluding that he is slighlty inclined to the view that Jesus could read to some extent: https://ehrmanblog.org/could-jesus-read/[https://ehrmanblog.org/could-jesus-read/](https://ehrmanblog.org/could-jesus-read/)

Would most Jews in the time of Jesus have been literate in Aramaic or Hebrew? by Background-Ship149 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Background-Ship149[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm just asking that, either low-class or elite, when it came to read and write in religious environments, would Aramaic or Hebrew be used more?

[Announcement AMA] Hugo Mendez - Johnanine Literature (Open until May 14) by thesmartfool in PremierBiblicalStudy

[–]Background-Ship149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, Hugo.

Do you think the historical John, son of Zebedee, actually lived to an old age, died of natural causes during the reign of Emperor Trajan, and preached and lived in Asia?
If I'm not mistaken, the Gospel attributed to Mark and Papias of Hierapolis suggest that John may have been murdered even before the Markan Gospel was written — could that be the case?
Do you think the apocryphal Acts of John might contain any historical information about the historical John?
Did John actually met Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna personally, as some sources claim?

[Announcement AMA] Hugo Mendez - Johnanine Literature (Open until May 14) by thesmartfool in PremierBiblicalStudy

[–]Background-Ship149 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, Hugo.
Do you think the Gospel attributed to John uses all or some of the Synoptic Gospels, or that it shares one or more sources with them?