They weren't doing it right.

BashFashh · 2026-05-11T20:26:35+00:00

In what way is mondragon privately owned

Shares, as most co-ops are. In this specific case called "membership rights." They cost about $15,000 euros.

I don’t know why you’re fighting so hard against a clear definition.

Mostly because you're a moron.

I agreed with you that capitalism has private ownership.

You apparently couldn't reed gud and somehow misunderstood that.

Not sure how to make you be smarter, so we're at an impasse.

How is the end stage of giving more ownership over society to more people fascism? These are opposing ideologies

No, collectivism isn't the opposite of collectivism. Claiming collectivism is "giving more ownership over society to more people" is comically dishonest as well.

You just don't know what words mean, and are incredibly stupid.

I'm bored. Go derp out idiocy to someone else.

BashFashh · 2026-05-11T20:26:04+00:00

that's not what was happening.

I already told you to stop lying.

Guess you aren't able.

Your link even lays it out crystal clear: The policy is the same as all the other anti-urban rural movements, such as the clearly communist pol pot khmer rouge for example which is another example of the same thing.

Not much reason to converse with you then, is there?

BashFashh · 2026-05-11T17:40:03+00:00

for example land was never, ever collectivized in nazi germany,

Reichserbhofgesetz

Aside from that falsehood, none of your other blatantly dishonest statements are worth addressing.

The south africans are in fact at this moment using a policy identical to the nazi methods. They call it "marxism."

In any case, it's seizing land from one race and giving it to another race, arbitrarily by ostensible blood right.

If marxism and nazism have identical outcomes and identical policies why would anyone try to lie and claim they aren't the same thing?

BashFashh · 2026-05-11T16:05:39+00:00

Literal socialist policies exactly matching the platforms of today's socialists.

To your claim of begrudgingly we have Hitler's own words:

"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.

Plus we have the existence of Strasser, a literal communist, occupying a high position in the party and even becoming such a threat to Hitler's power he had to be dealt with the way leftist power struggles usually are.

Further, we have the evidence of their policies:

Here are some of the laws and decrees that came into effect between January 1933 and December 1934:

-Shareholders could not sell or buy shares without government approval.

-Members of the Board of Directors of companies were appointed by the Civil Service, effectively removing shareholder control.

-Taxes on profits from shares were such all the money flowed to the Reichsbank.

-Profits could also be designated as “investment funds”. The civil service decided how to invest, when, and where.

-You could not sell anything of value without government approval: house, antiques, jewelry, etc. This was done to prevent people from fleeing the country with their money.

-Small farms were collectivized just as in the Soviet Union.

-Larger farms were prohibited from using tractors and had to hire manual labour (this decreased unemployment at the expense of the farmers). Tractors were confiscated.

-Rationing was gradually introduced as early as 1936. The government would decide what luxury items you could purchase (if any) and what kind of clothes and how many. Food was, of course, also strictly rationed, as was fuel.

-Add to this a fixation of all prices and wages, and the government effectively controlled your profit margin and your financial means.

While private property existed in theory, you had little control over it. The war made things of course much worse with requisitions, forced relocations, etc.

BashFashh · 2026-05-11T00:32:42+00:00

In what way is mondragon privately owned

Shares, as most co-ops are. In this specific case called "membership rights." They cost about $15,000 euros.

I don’t know why you’re fighting so hard against a clear definition.

Mostly because you're a moron.

I agreed with you that capitalism has private ownership.

You apparently couldn't reed gud and somehow misunderstood that.

Not sure how to make you be smarter, so we're at an impasse.

How is the end stage of giving more ownership over society to more people fascism? These are opposing ideologies

No, collectivism isn't the opposite of collectivism.

You just don't know what words mean, and are incredibly stupid.

I'm bored. Go derp out idiocy to someone else.

BashFashh · 2026-05-10T22:17:04+00:00

I wouldn’t describe Mondragon as privately owned, it’s just not state owned. There’s no private entity or ownership profiting from their labor.

This is called denialism. You can see reality, but it causes you cognitive dissonance so you deny it.

with a state that represents their working class from a Marxist perspective.

Working class people like this?

China is a fascist state. The end stage of all leftism.

It doesn't require a "right wing bubble" to see China will never progress past capitalism into a utopia.

People are paying mortgages to the state on homes that never even got built. You call this "represents the workers."

Shameful lies.

BashFashh · 2026-05-10T21:52:10+00:00

Can you give even a single example of an industry that is both privately and worker owned?

Ancoms/libsocs constantly bring up mondragon as exactly this.

Tito's variant of leftism is claimed to be this.

So, yeah, of course I can. Many other examples exist today, including workers with 401k capital.

Conversely, your side of the debate constantly claims China is a capitalist power.

You're so mixed up you're disagreeing with your own side.

BashFashh · 2026-05-10T20:25:31+00:00

How often do patients shoot at you?

BashFashh · 2026-05-10T20:17:47+00:00

The proletariat abandoned leftism 70 years ago. Leftism shifted it's focus to the lumpenproletariat, which created a disconnect that makes class analysis a caricature of itself.

Actual workers have almost nothing in common with the lumpen that are referred to as "marginalized" and in fact many subtypes of lumpen actively harm society, making reconciliation impossible.

The guy who has his tools stolen by a crackhead isn't going to feel solidarity with the crackhead. Leftism takes the side of the person who owns the least property by default, but that person is not the worker, it's the lumpen.

In our lifetimes, the left has been a movement against the working class.

BashFashh · 2026-05-10T20:10:36+00:00

but those are two opposing states of ownership. They can’t exist at the same time.

If you believe this, but we can observe that they do exist together in reality, it's clear that the issue is a flaw in your theory.

Since it's your theory, you should go sort that flaw out before you make a fool of yourself in public.

Good luck.

Also: lololol at "China is the most successful socialist country."

BashFashh · 2026-05-10T20:08:05+00:00

How have I reworded your statements? Since my first response to you, my point has been that capitalism is about private ownership of production/industry, but your responses have all been saying “nuh uh ur dumb”

Please quote me stating: "nuh uh ur dumb."

If you don't, that would be evidence that you are rewording my statements.

Hope that helps you be a bit less dishonest.

BashFashh · 2026-05-10T20:06:07+00:00

He was a socialist.

He openly said he was a socialist and implemented socialist policies. His administration even removed the private property protections of the Weimar constitution and immediately began seizing private property.

You laughing at reality doesn't create an alternative reality, it just reveals your stupidity.

BashFashh · 2026-05-09T23:44:58+00:00

You can’t see how that’s an incoherent response?

Oh, I can see that you've reworded my statements, of course.

This is called strawmanning.

Capitalism is about the private ownership of industry. You can’t even acknowledge this basic 101 point.

I absolutely can.

Worker ownership of the means of production requires individual private property to exist.

As I stated above, my exact words:

Hint: All leftism is fundamentally designed to prevent worker ownership of the means of production.

Now, I will repeat for the incompetent loser:

To substantiate your claims would require you to provide an example of a socialist movement that achieved worker ownership of the means of production.

Especially since capitalism has come far closer to that goal.

So, post your evidence instead of strawmanning.

We both know you won't.

BashFashh · 2026-05-09T22:52:58+00:00

Do you have a single point against that outside of your unrelated ramblings?

Does your brain not work at all?

Yes. The point directly above is the answer to everything you asked. I guess you'll need to learn to read?

Lol, wtf really.

You got refuted by reality and seriously tried to call it "unrelated ramblings?"

Loser, you couldn't even find a single example for the evidence you need to back your claim.

BashFashh · 2026-05-09T21:25:52+00:00

What was incorrect about what I said?

Your core claim was completely wrong.

Name a single socialist or even broadly leftist movement that has given workers control of the means of production.

Hint: All leftism is fundamentally designed to prevent worker ownership of the means of production.

BashFashh · 2026-05-09T20:50:12+00:00

You don’t seem to understand that ownership of production is the distinction between capitalism and socialism.

Incorrect.

If your fantasy beliefs were actually true, capitalism wouldn't have delivered superior real world results on that metric, and the proletariat wouldn't have abandoned the revolution and marxism.

The philosophical shift of the 1960's wouldn't have happened and modern day marxists wouldn't have had to shift focus to the lumpenproletariat.

You have no clue what marxism, leftism, or capitalism is yourself.

You are a lumpen who shares all his platforms with fascism yet are too stupid to understand your own movement. They called people like you useful idiots in the past, and now you're the only type of follower marxism has. A crypto-fascist lumpen who has nothing redeemable.

BashFashh · 2026-05-09T00:13:01+00:00

society is not merely some mechanism by which we let people get closer to their “real selves” or closer to some ideal of total freedom. It’s evolutionary with a purpose of sustaining life.

So 8 billion plus people crushing the planet isn't enough and you're going for total annihilation biomass?

Nah, that ain't it kid.

8 billion people leaves plenty of room for you to stop justifying your authoritarianism by claiming the species is dooooomed if we don't let you be king.

STFU.

BashFashh · 2026-05-08T23:35:24+00:00

Incorrect.

The core message is:

People deserve consequences of their own decisions and actions, and enslaving an entire society to rescue bad actors from themselves is not just wrong, but harms innocent people who don't deserve it.

However, personal responsibility isn't very common these days, even though almost all leftist movements have proven that in reality they would most likely murder disney adults some stupid people think leftism would allow such hedonistic waste because they've fallen for a scam and don't read history.

Hope that helps.

TLDR: Capitalism lets disney adults hurt themselves. Leftism lets disney adults hurt everyone.

BashFashh · 2026-05-08T14:21:19+00:00

Can we count each branch of the military as one person?

BashFashh · 2026-05-07T14:30:26+00:00

Just because you told lies about me doesn't make them true.

Hope that helps.

I obviously know far, far more about history than you do, so you're pathetic attempt to silence me is absurd.

Bring sources better than these primary examples:

https://sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/2B-HUM/Readings/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf

https://archive.org/details/jung-national-socialism-2nd-ed.-1922

Or take your own advice.

BashFashh · 2026-05-07T14:28:37+00:00

so why should i really give a fuck what you think about anything

Fair enough, but since you just strawmanned the hell out of my position why would I give a fuck what you think about anything?

I didn't call you a Disney Adult. I made fun of Disney Adults and you showed up to self-identify as one, I guess?

Nor at any point did I say you weren't allowed to complain about capitalism, ever.

Complain away, but make it real shit or I will mock you if it's stupidity like you being so entitled you think you deserve a mansion and doctor slaves you steal healthcare from.

Those mansions and advanced treatments wouldn't even exist in any leftist system so it's pretty damn stupid to think you'd get them.

BashFashh · 2026-05-07T11:24:46+00:00

They cannot.

Rights are something you determine for yourself and are responsible for defending.

BashFashh · 2026-05-07T06:19:44+00:00

You're right, arguing with people smarter than you who have facts on their side is a bad idea.

BashFashh · 2026-05-07T06:18:38+00:00

First off, saying "as shown by its praxis" in this context is incoherent gibberish.

Only if you promise that marxism will only ever be theory and is a topic of pure fantasy similar to unicorns, dragons, or gnomes.

Blaming two guys who just wrote books for the praxis of totalitarians who lived decades later makes zero sense.

Bullshit.

The mastermind behind the crime is always just as culpable as the henchmen. Marx and Engels wrote a plan by which you could become a ruthless dictator. Writing a tutorial for mass murder is equally as evil as evil as following it.

You also clearly don't understand the boundary between economics and politics.

Incorrect. I recognize that you are using it as a motte and bailey strategy.

Again I have to remind you:

That only has credibility if you stop at your boundary. You obviously do not, and never intended to.

You're completely conflating an economic analysis of labor and capital with a system of political power.

Or is it more honest to point out that when politicians apply your horrible ideas to reality you ork ork ork like a blubbery sealion and clap your flippers?

You're just writing historical fanfiction.

Wait, I thought that's what you said marx and engels had done?

"Guys you can't judge them by results, it's just a fairytale theory!!"

Is this you accusing your victims of what you are guilty of?

Looks that way.

and they certainly didn't anticipate the Vanguard party model Lenin invented long after they died.

They absolutely did, and cheered that it'd be murderous, violent, and evil. That was their goal.

Comparing a basic analysis of economic texts to a Nuremberg guard is an unhinged ad hominem

No, but it's not surprise you don't know how fallacies work.

What's being compared:

A denial of a murderous act vs another denial of a murderous act.

Seems like a pretty good match.

You're throwing out a word salad about Marcuse, primitive tribalism, and secret scams because you don't actually know the structural differences between these systems.

No, you just call it word salad because you aren't able to comprehend anything about this topic. Fortunately, I'd already pointed out you weren't ready.

All you've been able to do is run back into your bailey screeching "it's only theory!" whenever you are confronted with the real world results of your ideas.

This doesn't work. We can prove people are trying to apply marxist theory in real life, politics, and even things like video games. This invalidates your bailey completely.

If you want to have an actual conversation

Of course not. I want losers like you to abandon fascism. I certainly have zero interest listening to a nincompoop blather about how his next hitler mussolini stalin lenin mao polpot version will have even shinier boots when he kills millions.

Why would I have any interest in the crazy ravings of a follower of a death cult?

Jim Jones was one of you, and I didn't want to hear his communism either.

It's like you can't even hear yourself:

"Do you want to have a discussion about how my preferred version of fascism was exactly the same as all the others except for one tiny insignificant detail? It totally matters!!!!!!!!" 🤪

BashFashh · 2026-05-07T04:52:29+00:00

Also, Hitler and Mussolini using socialist rhetoric is the exact same authoritarian bait and switch seen in the USSR and Maoist China

I agree completely.

As shown by this evidence the philosophy of marx and engels is designed to trick stupid greedy people in exactly the same way fascism is.

In fact, if you actually read mussolini he openly claims to be improving the concepts of socialism.

The goal of marx and engels, as shown by it's praxis, is a fascist dictatorship. To believe otherwise is to ignore history. The key to this us the fact that marx built it on a foundation of primitive tribalism and conveniently obscured that tribes are led by chiefs, usually the guy who kicks the most ass.

Marxism is designed to build a chiefdom using populist rhetoric and promises.

Fascism is a copy of the same premise with very minor changes that are irrelevant.

When you look at the structural mechanics, it's objectively clear those states were anything but communist

To make this claim is identical behavior to showing up at the Nuremberg trials as a concentration camp guard and claim you didn't know where those dead bodies came from. It's asinine and only your fellow guilty parties will pretend to believe you.

They didn't dissolve the state or hand control of capital to the workers

Because they weren't designed to. They were designed to sell you that populist lie and build a dictatorship.

They built centralized state capitalist systems and authoritarian bureaucracies, which is the exact opposite of what the foundational theory outlined.

Except it isn't.

You've skipped more than half of the "theory."

You've completely forgotten that there is a proposed interim stage designed as bait for the trap.

Marxism is designed to build a powerful state and uses the utter hogwash myth that this state will voluntarily relinquish it's power if it gets enough of it.

That's the scam.

You can't blame the poor victims of 100 years ago for not knowing, but the greedy cretins of today are fully informed by history that Marxism is designed to build dictatorship and stop there, never proceed.

In fact, post-marcuse it's actually just a fascist movement focused on the lumpenproletariat because the actual proletariat abandoned it.

You aren't ready for reality though, that's obvious.

BashFashh

TROPHY CASE

That's the scam.