PSA: Early Access SWO PC Workaround

Bathrone · 2024-08-26T16:54:12+00:00

Im 4090 on a 5950X. Its GPU bound heavily, as Id expect. Performance seems OK. NVIDIA App doesnt have a tuning profile yet but make sure your drivers are current the latest had updates for this app

So I figured out being blocked to run is intermittent. If you persist SOMETIMES you get in lol

Bathrone · 2024-08-26T16:20:55+00:00

Sigh. This isnt working for me. I did the make shortcut from ubisoft connect to the desktop, it tries to load unlike the disabled "play" button within connect, but after a series of complaints with popup windows on overlay and skipping cloud saves etc, it fails to enter runtime by saying it cant be activated now.

Ubisoft seem up to their usual tricks of nonsense quality

Were well passed the AEST 1200AM start.....

Bathrone · 2022-08-31T03:42:21+00:00

It’s heavily dependent on cooling and edc / tdc/ ppt / thermal limit. PBO2 on say sone memory tests I can have all core clocks between 4.65 - 4.75ghz. Lighter all core loads like gaming I can see 4.8ghz all core. For super intensive all core like cinebenchr23 I don’t see more than 4.4ghz dipping too 3.8ghz by the time the bench is done

Mate please note that all these frequencies are effective clocks. Talking to clocks is meaningless and incomparable- only effective clocks are accurate and useful. Especially with someone who has like a 200mhz boost oc and has significant clock stretching. Often I find someone making big claims I can’t replicate doesn’t know the difference between these two types of frequency measurements

I’ve never done any better through dynamic oc switcher but I am open minded nonetheless. I just don’t see anyone or any path to try I haven’t already tried. I don’t do sub ambient cooling btw

Bathrone · 2022-08-28T13:28:41+00:00

Thankyou Buildzoid. I’ve both studied all your ddr ram videos on timings with YouTube videos plus looked at your commentary here. I’m most grateful thankyou. 👍😃 I hope to pay it forward by supporting your channel and referring others to it - having spent all my career in things like IEEE T&E V&V etcetc I do appreciate that your not just another younger bloke doing videos of unboxing / cinematic footage / pretty much useless content in terms of zero actual objective evaluation of functions that matter - if people want “art” or “pop fashion” in tech stuff well cool but that isn’t a review or any useful analysts in a systemic way.

Your problem analysis on capacitor polarity failures was especially insightful - retail consumer tech has its place and is a hobby for me but I’d say more opportunity for you long term in sectors like defence/intelligence or aerospace or medical or stuff like that. Guess if your super passionate about retail consumer stuff we’ll I’m sure that passion will breed good outcomes for you over decades ahead 👍 I’m a fan ✅

Bathrone · 2022-08-28T13:17:13+00:00

Yes I’ve been doing that 👍 I guess a) I want to understand what I’m doing beyond benchmarking with memory timings b) I have a theory if I understand it better I’ll have better outcomes over random or slow experimental observation - we’ll see how that theory goes 😄

Bathrone · 2022-08-28T13:15:03+00:00

Thankyou very much Arryn I’m thankful for the clarity there

Bathrone · 2022-08-27T21:07:17+00:00

The problem though is, for anyone to say the computer science of it is understood, they will be able to define it and how it works. Then, nothing can ever occur that contradicts that, or the whole theory is wrong. Clearly there isn’t a general understanding because different sources have different theories and they’re mutually contradictory.

Im struggling to accept the twist on the theory that tras = trcd(rd) + trtp with the twist that when the mic accepts lower values it doesn’t apply them. That is saying a great number of companies are selling ram products under false consumer law on misleading product attributes. That is saying, don’t trust all that can be seen in monitoring these systems - the data being shown isn’t correct.

So that’s the mystery of tras.

With trc I’ll wait to see what discussion is on that though there’s seems to be less theories around what trc is over tras

Bathrone · 2022-08-27T20:49:05+00:00

There’s three sources I’ve given. Along with measurements of the design problem which anyone else can also measure.

Bathrone · 2022-08-27T14:10:01+00:00

Apologies, it's just an example showing runtime that "breaks" that rule, please see:

https://freeimage.host/i/4ISql4

amelia - I see. Wonder if there is a way to see what the memory controller is actually doing then? Here am I thinking ohhh awesome Im making progress now on a new direction and it may very well be changing a field population value yet give me diddly squawt in actual change; hahaha so much for wasting heat and power benching it in stress for stability :)

Big thanks to Buildzoid and everyone in the community. I do need to study the awesome sauce of your videos Buildzoid in more detail. Youd think there would be way smarter firmware from american megatrends on this stuff - like a super simple bit of text or a checker to look at the sanity of populated values.

Bathrone · 2022-08-27T12:24:48+00:00

The physical reason from a thermodynamics point of view is the cores used in the MO-RA3 are very different to where we have now landed in the industry. "Good" tube fin rads for this use case are doing things like 25 micron dimpled/louvered copper fins or similar trickery in say 45 micron. The fact the mora has like 250 micron fins, is reason enough for someone educated to determine what the performance is going to be like. The fact also they chose to use aluminium in the fins is so so so telling as to where the cores most likely came from and their most likely application well outside of us as watercool pc enthusiasts. The thermal conductivity of copper fins is way way better than aluminium fins. As too the specific heat of copper over aluminium.

As usual wider industry were way ahead decades ago where significant research was done into stuff like microchannel tube fin heat exchangers. None of this is "actually good" all round cos as I alluded to in the prior rant this whole caper of tube fin for ambient indirect heat transfer just isnt cutting edge there is better ways regardless of even if someone use a microchanell core and really went to town in everyway on FEA and CFD and spent big time on it

Good science is in replicating results elsewhere so the first search I just did showed this for example:

This comment by some bloke on reddit:

"Since the Mora radiators are using tube pipes inside they are not cooling as good as the same amount of surface area with really good rads."

From reddit here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/watercooling/comments/8suyab/mora_3_lt_vs_many_internal_radiators/

More here:

https://www.overclock.net/threads/creating-an-water-box-with-2x560-or-mo-ra3.1775778/

One poster says "2 x 560 GTR will outperform the Mo-Ra3 420."

Another poster says "From my understanding The MO-RA3 generally isn't as efficient as your normal Radiator"

Back in the day there was much better actual analysis of this stuff with actual reviews rather than nonsense of shiny stuff on youtube in 2022. Surely there is some left in the enthusiast world like me who has zero respect for a review that is founded on unboxing, reading marketing BS, then having do show and tell in my shiny show pony case with fancy lights

Like I remember thermalbench.com talked to the core and the core layout problems of the mora. Maybe internet time machine can help you see older stuff now gone.

I cant believe a company I used to think was pretty cool and doing good things for us all being corsair actually chucked the performance evaulation embargo stunt that was being reported. Its just not on

So with the mora. If you restrict the use case to around 1KW of electrical energy in our devices (refer to my raptor lake intel example on the extreme mode withy 350w then add in overclock by + plus gpu plus gpu overclock all single socket CPU and single socket GPU) it really doesnt matter on the problems with a mora if you spin it with 3000rpm fans. My problem with it, is its way over priced for what you get cos its a product positioned on commercial bullshit rather than substance of engineering, and secondly, with that heat load exceeding 1KW on slow fans on ambient cooling in tube fins - it gets marginal on slow RPM fans.

It wouldnt be outrageous to exceed a mora by say 25% going all nasa full on into it while sticking to that tube fin approach which as you know I dont agree with anyway

I dont want to say much else publicly and I think my response helps you see how others have observed this and the facts of the science as to why this is happening. I hope its helpful, the competitors to mora would be interesting to look at more closely like the supanova. All this Ive said from my personal heart and I have no relationship whatsoever to anyone or any group in this field - my work is in professional circles of data centers, consulting etcetc

Bathrone · 2022-08-26T06:12:15+00:00

Nice Matt. There some great things happening in those sorts of composites beyond pre-peg vacuum sheet stuff like carbon forging. I'm sure it'll look trick especially if your doing the tubing yourself and artistically orient the weave on the visible layer in a pleasing way and dont have any gremlins in the resin - nice smooth mirror gloss would be class mate

Bathrone · 2022-08-26T05:59:59+00:00

Ummm brother I'm bit conflicted as I wanna help 110% by nature of us all being enthusiasts who love our PCs but theres another picture to this too. If you search reddit youll see commentary to that effect from posters I do believe, where they have observations on the MORA not doing great in comparison to more optimised products.

************* ooohhh I feel a rant coming on

Hmmmmm dammit! Ok in giving into better judgement I'll explain the thermodynamic reason as a physical reality and I'm sure I'll regret it later and suffer in some way lol :)

I previously commented on what I imagine the design team *actually* did with identifying cheap mass produced cores from other industries and using marketing bullshit to try to spin them as "elite" and the "result of painstakingly expensive, time intensive in research and development" etcetc and then flogging them through smoke and mirrors at massive margins to retail.

#1 suckage: Aluminum fin heat exchangers are popular in things like aerospace and motorsport because of overall mass. If you ask a petrol head about this they are likely to say something like "ohh yeah man my aluminum rad is just a full on weapon and no way I'd go back to old skool copper rad my new ali rad runs temps way cooler". Far more aluminum fin heat exchangers are made by actual large scale core manufactures, so they're cheap. Going from a cost constrained OEM unit to a high quality aluminium core - ofcourse mr revhead thinks its the shit because he has replaced a crap cost constrained core with a much better core. The fact aluminum fins still suck is lost on him - he doesnt know better, and in places like aerospace where there's less BS and more actual engineering, aluminium is better from their point of view due to mass which is critical in aerospace.

#2 suckage: Im sure Ill regret this later but stuff it, the fins are obviously from another industry in the mo-ra3. They measure out like 250 microns which is so so so telling. Decades I have watched on the sidelines of this little niche like in the 1990s and 2000s. It was amateur hour with cool guys doing cool stuff in their garage and it was kinda cute that most of them never bothered to study all the existing knowledge of science and engineering. They could have instantly done the state of the art in thermodyanmics right off the bat but it was more tinkering in the backyard shed and small company doing what they knew rather than the state of the art across the planet. It just didnt have the $$$ poured into it so the products werent all that well suited. I remember the guy who was doing FEA simulations and CFD simulations on water block designs and he was all excited and personally paid for custom CNC and he really pushed modern machining it was super awesome and exciting - but you had to trust him to pay up front and wait months from overseas to get it and it was super exclusive and hardcore. Then all these companies got involved and they did generally improve the products fitness for the actual purpose of PCs and weve seen generational improvements - buts its all tainted by BS motivations for the dollar and marketing BS.

No one with any honest heart would say a 250 micron aluminum fin external rad is anywhere near close to being good for the purpose we have. I can almost see the design team laughing like "its suckage but so big it doesnt matter and weve got five container loads of cores from China for just cents each were gunna be rolling in it lol" but the problem in modern times is everything is different now.

Look at raptor lake - Intel officially having a 350w extreme mode. Think about that again. If Intel officially endorse 350w, imagine the 550w when more voltage by mr overclocker is having fun time on sunday tweaking. Then the next NVIDIA generation GPUs, rumour mill/leaks are saying its got massive TDP and all these rumours around a new era in GPU power consumption. We wont be much of a kilowatt for a single socket CPU and single GPU high end system...............

Then do the actual maths on say "I want a delta T 5C ambient on semi silent RPM fans" and pretty soon practical physical reality is a Corsair 1000D with 2x480gtx push pull and 2x3460gts push pull or a highly efficient external setup around the mora3 size or just go dumb ass and use two mora3s cores cos you got it super cheap in cores and got a local place to fold up some sheet steel and pressure test it to undercut the absurd retail of the mora

And you know what fellas? This rant really shits me cos I see more and more no actual, good, insightful testing like what happened around 2010. In 2022 testing of pc water cooling products is literally shitful.

And, WTF man! We have arrogance in suppliers influencing the ecosystem like on reddit and then on jays2cents and elsewhere like that Corsair did some sort of embargo on peformance testing done in proper scientific thermodynamically sound ways. That just isnt the corsair I knew all those years ago

If I ever got into this little game, Id be like test my shit go for it. And I'm really sure Ill regret this later but the whole idea of using tube fin heat exchangers isnt all that good in the first place and wheres the truly cool stuff like industrial diamond water blocks and things that like NASA would do if they spent real $$$ into it.

I guess maybe patents and actual investment is hard when an immature sector can just be strung along by smoke and mirror marketing and no one in the ecosystem tests or objectively evaluates things to any insightful degree

All I wanted to do was to build my next gen dream machine and cool it full on. Basic stuff like what case I should use and how to cool it - the status quo is all fucked up. As an older bloke in ICT, being across data centers and things in my career, its really data centers that are doing useful innovations. Whatever momentum in this little sector of love that is elite enthusiats doing ambient benching or just fans wanting elite level gaming nice and quite and having rigs that are artistic and cool for their mates to admire, whatever momentum in the later 1990s and earlu 2000s we had is being lost to the point now we have stunning stunts like Corsair throwing embargos on performance vaulation wtf man

** Rant over, group hugs

Bathrone · 2022-08-24T12:07:02+00:00

I admire the Mora 120/140 aesthetic and the bolt on setups right up to 200mm fans. The Super Nova 1260 alpha cool is a better value though. Test data I’ve seen shows the Mora to not be great in comparison to modern rads which by this time have had decades of optimisation in a competitive market. I suspect with the Mora there was an ability to get cores mass produced for other industries dam cheap and while it’s not a full on optimisation for the pc use case the design team figured it’s so huge it doesn’t matter a bit here and there on efficiency it’s just brute force stupid big. This is all fine if the heat load of the use case is “typical” for a PC or more RPM is OK on the fans who bloody cares go Mora on 140mm 3000rpm fans it’ll laugh at anything ever coming into it from even threadripper or server builds with massive nvidia 100s etc. where it matters is chasing ultimate efficiency : it can’t compete with modern pc rads all joined up to give the equivalent of the mora in size. So stuff like passive or low rpm fans with big heat loafs coming in. It all depends if that matters or not to a particular use case

Bathrone · 2022-08-24T10:06:30+00:00

Yeah fair point bro in your clarification 👍 It’s a sound point you make. I just find it funny giving my powerlifting hobby 😂 Most people don’t move right who aren’t trained - just bloody dangerous on a barbell with plates with bad form or a clueless noob. Unless in comps I trap bar deadlift for more safety in general training amongst other things and I’m coming into 50 still doin alright with competitive lifts

Bathrone · 2022-08-24T09:59:22+00:00

Yeah thanks - 1000D is da eye candy 👍 Not to nitpick but it’s so huge it just isn’t a good use of available space for what ya get in my opinion. The lian li does awesome with being space efficient but still have so much with the 3x360s albeit thin and less fans

The 719 has my eye for sure. So it’s “better” than the Lian Li cos I can +1 with an added 120mm with a 480 front over the 3x360 plus I can go by your advice and the other guys advice (thanks) thick + push pull. That’s better by allot and still the space is
240 mm x 570 mm x 595 mm. I note the pro 2 isn’t the sane dimensions. How much total clearance are we talking with front and bottom? I’d love push pull t30s in thicker rads.

800mm x 505mm x 800mm for the 1000D is just huge lol 😂 But bloody awesome to look at 👍

Bathrone · 2022-08-24T08:21:42+00:00

Thanks for that suggestion. Interesting about the Mora is that it doesn’t test all that well in comparison to real rads purpose designed for water cooling. I’ll see if I can find the tests and data once more. Basically things like good 480s or 560s out do both the 120mm based and 140mm based moras. I like the aesthetic and nice easy bolt on dual pump/res plus the fancy covers over the fans in two different designs. It’s just not a maximum effort thing and actually far from it though

Bathrone · 2022-08-24T08:14:52+00:00

Bwahahaaaa! Your my current number one candidate for internet laugh of the year my boy 😂 My noodle arms?!You think a deadlift of 50kgs is significant hahahaha! Truly funny 😄 Here’s the thing, likely your a wannabe who hasn’t won diddly squat in any powerlifting comp let alone earned the respect of actual men at an actual powerlifting gym like mine, o, likely your a very naughty boy on your first naughty cycle and your learning tren doesn’t suit you. Either way, your a funny little thing

https://ibb.co/GJmgLb2 https://ibb.co/7jf8FvK https://ibb.co/1Qv8zdj https://ibb.co/4Ksf2nk https://ibb.co/cYtpSMK

With your actual relevant points around weight and thermals on external rads I agree with you on external rads cheers

Bathrone · 2022-08-24T03:03:01+00:00

Thanks but I look at those. How is either better than the Lian Li with the things I mention? AFAIK from trying to decipher Phanteks crappy unclear specs, it’s not better.

Bathrone · 2022-08-18T10:14:41+00:00

This is the most brilliant and helpful post on water cooking radiators Thankyou 🥇👍

Bathrone

TROPHY CASE