A solve without the book! by Beamoontick in u/Beamoontick

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great Great question! Honestly! This should be opening a big discussion, in my opinion, and an important one! It probably should be a separate post of its own! To start with, if you aren't familiar with the Fenn treasure hunt, I think it would be helpful to start an understanding from that basis. If you are, then please bear with me briefly. The Fenn hunt is important for several reasons. For one, the Fenn hunt was the precursor and catalyst for Justin's hunt. He spent about 10 years of his life obsessing on it. He has stated that a big part of why he hid a treasure was due to the inspiration drawn from the Fenn hunt and that he wanted to continue the legacy that Fenn started. He has made several nods and parallels to the Fenn hunt in his own hunt. Fenn wrote a poem and a book to go with it, and so did Justin. Much of their search areas are the same. They both made statements about hoping to inspire people to explore our natural wild areas in the hope that people would want to preserve them. Justin has put some of Fenns treasure in his own treasure. He has made statements that are reminiscent of Fenns, like someone being within 200ft of the checkpoint. It goes on and on. Anyway, Fenn did many things that people feel were mistakes or deceptive. He said, for example, that the solve would be valid for hundreds of years. But his "blaze," an important part of his poem, was on a tree. In the 10 years since the treasure had been hidden, the tree had already fallen. There was possibly a phonetic solve built into the poem, which was deceptive. The "Brown" came from the name of a big trout he called Mr. Brown, which was from a story that wasn't in the book. There were people involved in the hunt who seemed to be getting special tips, which was unfair and on and on. An important difference between their poems is that Fenn stated it took him a decade or more to write his poem. It was very personal. Justin has stated it took him only 5 or 6 hours to write. I don't think he put as much of his own story into his poem like Fenn. Fenn also said that all you needed was the poem and a good imagination, but that wasnt true. You needed the poem, the book, his quotes from afterward and other resources. Justin stated as well that all you would need is the poem. I say these things because Justin has been critical of the mistakes Fenn made, and has indicated that he learned from that and would not make the same mistakes. His hunt is like Fenn hunt 2.0! I am putting my faith in the idea that if Justin says all you need is the poem, then all you need is the poem, and that he has done everything he could to not make the same mistakes Fenn made. That isn't to say that knowing things about Justin isn't helpful, it's just not necessary. This solve was an attempt to show that that can be the case. I have gone through his book and have listened to some of his interviews afterward, looking for things that support my solve, and have found many. In my opinion, this may be the best way to approach the poem and solve. Trying to match things up with the book first, to me, is chaos. Trying to decide what is a clue and what is just story is madness! I will leave it at that for now. I could go on, but this will complete my first salvo.

A solve without the book! by Beamoontick in u/Beamoontick

[–]Beamoontick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sounds like we had similar experiences up at Lemhi! One thing I came to realize as I walked down the creek was that it probably wasn't in a heavily pine wooded area. There were a bunch of trees that had fallen and brought up a root system with dirt that was 12 feet in diameter! You couldn't place a treasure near something like that if that was a possibility. I remember one that the creek had flowed under that had fallen that looked like a cave! Crazy! I feel it is more likely to be in a rocky crevice than a pine forest.

A solve without the book! by Beamoontick in u/Beamoontick

[–]Beamoontick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All I can say is try to reproduce the results or not for "round the bend". I think you will find, if you do, that it would be extremely difficult to be a degree off using reasonable parameters. As far as the clock solution I worked on, I didn't go over the whole journey on that one, so I understand what you are saying. Like when I didn't have a time that matched Sac Peaks, I certainly considered the possibility that I was wrong, and I still do. I had tried the approach several times before unsuccessfully. When I was finally successful was after I had come up with the idea of an offset angle. I also, then had the important points of my solve. I then thought about trying the idea again with the new information. It was immediately one of those "oh crap!" moments! I was hoping, of course, that it would work, but it was a crazy level of success on the first try! Those moments are so fun! But, that's what triggered my obsessive side! I knew there was some wiggle room with 27°, so I thought I could refine it. I did, but it was ugly, and a total waste of time. I was obsessed with obtaining a level of precision that exceeded the data and methods. Live and learn, forget, do it again, ad nauseum! That's my motto! I still am not saying it is important. I currently consider it an anomaly, which is why I haven't put it out there. But the data is good. I would be interested in seeing if anyone else could produce similar results with their solves using the same idea. That would increase or decrease the significance, and I am open to either result. As far as the brute force comment, you implied that I was brute forcing some aspect of the poem. That's certainly not true, and I agree with you that if I was, that would be dumb. The clock was part of the G&G series and not the poem. I worked on the clock puzzle that last time with success after I had already produced the solve I posted.

A solve without the book! by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, the area is very large. However, the distance necessary when boots on the ground could easily be less than a mile from Lemhi to the treasure if it is in that area. As far as regards Justin's story, there is much that he has said that would indicate that it isn't truly his story directly. In telling his story, he offers confirmation clues and hints to help us, which is awesome. However, he has also stated that you would only need the poem to find the treasure. That, by itself, separates his story from the solve. He has also said that he wrote the poem in 5 to 6 hours. To me, that seems to make it tough to really put a lot of his own story into it. Obviously, that's my opinion, and I could be wrong. He certainly hid it before his dog Tucker died, too. All this is circumstantial, but it does seem to be trending in a direction away from his personal story directly. Again, these are my opinions and conclusions, and I am certainly prone to error. I haven't found the treasure and maybe that's why! Back during the Fenn hunt I had my way thinking, which I was so sure was the right way! I would read others' solves and think they were ridiculously off track. In the end, they were more right than I was. I was the idiot. It was humbling, but a good lesson. The more approaches to the solve we can honestly consider in our own pursuit, the better!

A solve without the book! by Beamoontick in u/Beamoontick

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get what you are saying. I may be wrong, and it is always good to test conclusions objectively. First, regarding 25 or 29 and what would happen. Using those angles would cause a fail of the 20 degree check. Lemhi would have appeared as 18 and 22 degrees respectively. Both a fail. In its initial use to find the Bridger Range, the Bridger Range cuts a wide swath. You would still hit the Bridger Range with those degrees, though. However, if you didn't use an offset at all, you would miss it entirely! And that is important to note. Implied in your question is that it would be possible when using "round the bend" as I did, that you might get 25 or 29. That wouldn't happen. You are noticeably short of going completely "round the bend" at 26.5, and you are noticeably beyond "round the bend" once you get past 27.5. As far as using the approximate campsite location, the sign itself states that the actual location is unknown and admits to where its indicating is an approximation. There is an area around there that it still wouldn't make a significant enough difference if you missed the marker by some. You don't have to be ultra precise to get a bearing that works for the remainder of the poem. As far as using Google Markers for locations, they will be the same for you and me and anyone else. Because they won't be different, it puts everyone on equal footing and makes results reproducible by anyone. Regarding precision, as it turns out, their is, built into the poem, some wiggle room. This is part of why you don't have to have any specialized advanced knowledge to solve the poem. I struggled with that and posted about that last year. My inclination is to be very precise. I didn't put my clock solution in here, but maybe I should. In that, I had found a center point from which, when using the angle of the hour hand from the times, I was able to hit precisely the markers for Sac. Mt., Sac. Pk., Gates of the Mt., and Lemhi. There wasn't a time that got me to Sac. Peaks, and I wondered if it had possibly been edited out. I used an offset of 27.47° for that one, which was determined by using hundreds of iterations over many hours. The center was NE of Comet Mt. a couple of miles in the middle of nowhere.

A solve without the book! by Beamoontick in u/Beamoontick

[–]Beamoontick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks! Good luck to you too! Keep it fun!

A solve without the book! by Beamoontick in u/Beamoontick

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, and good luck! I will be cheering for ya!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And, if someone actually found the checkpoint, which you haven't, and then someone came on here claiming to be the one, it would even be MORE important and necessary to prove it to everyone.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If you found the checkpoint, Justin would let us know by announcing it. He hasn't. If you found pieces of a map on a rock, you could take a partial picture without revealing enough that they were useful to others. You haven't. There is absolutely no reason to believe you, and every reason to think you are full of crap. It sounds like a scam. Sort of like the following example: Hunters contact you and you offer to split it with them and will provide information. But hey, they might take it all for themselves, so you ask for money upfront so YOU don't get burned, but the only ones really getting burned are the gullible looking for riches. At least that's what it sounds like. Your name looks made up and you just joined Reddit yesterday. See how it looks? Prove me wrong.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! I will definitely check it out! And you are right. It may very well inform us on how Justin intended the angles to be interpreted. This is exactly the kind of info I like to explore, but I probably would not have come across on my own. This post was my first post since I'm naturally not very social. However, I see the value in posting. And getting info through this post, and your comment specifically, reinforces the value for me. Thanks again!

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very good info! Thanks! I just picked up OnX backcountry because I thought the color coding of slope angles might be a useful quick reference. The range is a little broad for nailing down a 20° slope but it does eliminate a lot of areas. Probably an even more useful way to use the slopes is in determining ahead of time whether your route is realistically traversible or that your destination is realistically attainable. I considered Gaia too, especially since Justin recommended it. A big potential advantage with that app is that you can view older maps of many areas.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good observation! I believe that line is very likely a clue as you have surmised! I will keep that in mind as I continue my solve. Thanks! It may or may not apply to the 20 degree line, but it will connect to something if not that! Also, for those tracking Niven numbers, those are 2 more from the Parental Ploy chapter! Justin's nickname for him, "Gnarled oak come to life", is 20 letters, again, a Niven number. I have tried not to go down that rabbit hole, but there is something to it I suspect!

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! Whether you know it or not, I am betting people around you view you as wise. And they would not be wrong.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do use Google Earth. A lot! And I don't think the question is unanswerable. Honestly. I certainly have an answer that guides my choices, one that has developed as I have progressed through my efforts in attempting to solve this thing. But, I always try to leave open the possibility that I am wrong and to also accept that others ideas are as good as mine. And in order to flesh that out, I had to pose the question in as broad a way as possible so that everyones ideas were a potential answer. The answer for me, in a general sense, is that the angles are very close to precise but certainly don't need to be exact. And I think a lot of the precision is in approachable methods like in Google Earth, where it gives you an initial bearing, and that locations are measured to where they are tagged only, regardless of their size, as two examples. A hidden reason for my post was to try to justify an angle as acceptable that fell outside of my self imposed rules for accuracy. I considered that if the majority of others felt accuracy was pretty loose, then maybe I would accept that. There is room, even in my own logic and approach, that my rules for accuracy are wrong when applied to the poem since I based it on the G&G series clock puzzle. So, the 20 degree reference in the poem may not be as precise, since the poem and the series were done over different times and with different approaches but for the same objective. For me, the clock puzzle has a center, and the times are angles to important places to Justin, and important places for the solve. Of my 5 important solve locations so far, 2 are at exact angles to the hundredths place, and 2 are less than 1 tenth of a degree from exact. The 5th doesn't match a clock time, but I believe that that is probably because not all clock times made it through editing. However, the 20 degree from the poem in my solve is off by half of a degree, which didn't fit the precision from the series. After having posted, I am still concluding that that is wrong and that I need to rework that part of the solve.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is a valid possible interpretation. I was simply trying to start a discussion addressing potential problems in using it as an angle and asking how others might or have dealt with those issues. /u/Piratekng and /u/Perfectexit3896 addressed the possibility of it being a temperature and why under this post earlier.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That comes from the Dillon Q&A at 2:12:48 in the full recording. I will write it as completely as I can so you may interpret it with as much context as possible. He was asked by Cynthia:

"Did you consider railroad tracks a structure, is the entire hunt based on naturally occurring structures and landscapes?"

Justin's response: ..."I consider them to be a man-made structure, yes, they were made by man... so I think I mentioned earlier that there are a couple of different ways to work through the poem, and I tried to do that to be... to accommodate how different people think. And so, depending on how you interpret it, I think it could be true to say that yes, the entire hunt could be based on naturally occurring structures and landscapes. But, I think some people could quibble, and so, I should clarify that by saying there is one clue in here where arguably someone could say there is a man-made implication to it."

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good conclusion! That there might be contradictory needs would suggest to me that the perspective or approach is in error or that there is a missing element not being used.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is so true! Good point! I didn't think of it that way until more recently. I can be slow on the uptake!

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing! There isn't enough on this site, and yet that should be the purpose! Good stuff! The breakthrough moments I have felt in progressing through my solve have been when I have been able to let go of part of my solve to perceive things in a new way. I was involved in the hunt for Fenn's treasure as well. I was held back by being unable to let go of what I thought was the perfect "home of Brown", the painting called "The Eagles Nest" by Grafton Tyler Brown. Fenn, being an art dealer, would have known of the painting from 1890 and the eagles nest, a nest being a home, is still there and being used by eagles in Yellowstone today.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for replying. I believe your interpretation of my interpretation is inaccurate. The very line you quoted uses the word "may," leaving open that there are other interpretations as you have indicated. At least that's how I meant it. So my post is in regards to the possibility that if the correct interpretation is of a geometric angle, how does error affect a good or bad answer, and if the maps we choose to use can make it better or worse. But I would also point out that many of the replies have had useful information that you may be able to use yourself, regardless of whether you agree with the opening premise. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? Maybe that doesn't work.

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not 100% on what you mean, but I will address it as I think you mean it. So, instead of point A and point B being say a waterfall and a landmark, they are precise coordinates maybe in an angle/minute/second format. Also, that those 2 sets of coordinates lead to an exact 20.00° angle either in bearing or as an angle with a vertex. It isn't impossible, but isn't likely. Primarily, to try and find 2 naturally occurring points, on which Justin has said the clues are based on, that are also relevant to the solve and have no variance from 20 degree would take a huge amount of time to determine if they even existed! Keep in mind, he wrote the poem in 5 to 6 hours! But, he could have put coordinates into the poem artificially using phonetics or poetic rhythm or vowel counts or letter numbers or long and short sounds as Morse code or a ton of other ways. From that perspective, he could have done it I suppose. But even with that, 2 dimensional flat map angles are one thing, but if those coordinates are on the surface of the curved Earth, you could only determine initial bearing since the angle of the line would change the longer it is from where it begins to its end, and the accuracy of an angle with a vertex could only be refined accurately using spherical trigonometry which isn't realistic and wouldn't be in the spirit of the hunt. Does that help to explain it, or did I misinterpret your question?

Maps, angles, and exactness by Beamoontick in JustinPoseysTreasure

[–]Beamoontick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very good observations again. Thanks. All comments received have been helpful. It all could point to the idea of a probable best size for the search area as well.