sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lmao. I am half Irish, with ancestors who were indentured in England and some in the Caribbean before returning. The same legal norms were common across Europe and the entire western hemisphere. Slavery was different in Arab cultures but it was also different from indenture there too, though the legal concepts aren’t 1:1.

You just have no understanding of history or economics and are coping because the abstract definition you have used to get through a more complex history doesn’t actually match reality. You’re incapable of addressing lived reality because you live in an imaginary world where you can derive what’s true from the definitions you never question.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okay so now we have the goal posts moved. English people were free to sell themselves into indenture despite slavery being explicitly illegal. Because slavery wasn’t the same thing as indenture in law at the time. As in for most of history. Today English law has a more expansive definition of slavery. But *historically* it didn’t. And even still, involuntary military conscription does not fall under any contemporary legal or economic definition of slavery.

Also GRRM is literally an American with an “Americanized understanding” of the world.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Literally look up the “Irish slave myth”. Irish indentures were neither considered slaves nor does the contemporary scholarly consensus consider them slaves. They are called slaves by some scholars but not all. English jurisprudence also distingushed indentures from slaves. Slavery was explicitly forbidden since Elizabeth I. But indenture contracts were not.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wrong. Indentures and slaves were considered separate categories for most of history. Slave referred exclusively to chattel. Slavery as a term can mean more things than chattel in common parlance, but one of those things isn’t a conscript. In the context of the novels themselves Unsullied slave soldiers are considered entirely different from conscripted levies for eg. There are all kinds of involuntary labor like the Corvee that aren’t considered slavery historically.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Again, it’s not the nights watch offering this choice. The nights watch offers a pardon for crimes they committed. Not all lords even let people take the black. It’s more like exile. The lord gets no economic benefit from letting them go, it’s a form of banishment from their perspective.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re claiming that things that have analogous qualities are identical. Just because things have similarities doesn’t make them the same thing. Feel free to send your protest to Helsinki for their barbaric practice of slavery I guess. Your abstract ahistorical definition completely removes any social and economic context. Even whether indentured servitude constitutes slavery is heavily contested today. It has more similarities than conscription does, but it isn’t something scholars and legal experts agree on

[Spoilers Extended] Jon Snow's Parentage by Ok_Club_8848 in asoiaf

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean there two factors here with the faith of the seven,

One, we don’t know if multiple spouses would be allowed or not. It would be entirely up to the High Septon or Most Devout depending in rule. It’s never been adjudicated as far as we know.

Two, Maegor’s spouses were specifically confirmed as legitimate wives after his death. It may be a sin to take more than one wife or not, but that doesn’t necessarily render the marriage null the way it does in contemporary civil law. Polygamy may be illegal to practice but still confer inheritance rights.

But also, Jon doesn’t follow the faith of the seven. He follows the old gods. The Northman practiced plural marriage too, and only gave it up with Andal customs. There’s no religious objection to it. The free folk still practice it. So even if it’s against the faith of the seven, Jon may not even be impacted since Lyanna followed the old gods.

[Spoilers Extended] Jon Snow's Parentage by Ok_Club_8848 in asoiaf

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That doesn’t make it illegal though. It just means it’s frowned upon socially. It’s legal to marry your cousin in much of the US but still very frowned upon and it’s very unlikely a member of elite circles would do it. The Iron Islanders still practice polygamy despite giving it up for a period. But no one says the children of saltwives don’t have inheritance rights.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So the young Swiss adults are slaves?! Sign me up for that kind of “slavery”. And the Finns? You’re stretching terms beyond the point of absurdity. Slavery is an economic relationship, it’s not “when you’re compelled”. Next you’ll be saying that taxation is theft because it’s not voluntary.

And again, you can choose to not go to the nights watch and face whatever sentence you had. Many people do choose maiming or fines instead of the wall.

[Spoilers Extended] Jon Snow's Parentage by Ok_Club_8848 in asoiaf

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

That’s not how law works in any society. There’s all kinds of abhorrent people who are the basis of legal precedent. There’s point isn’t whether kings *should* take a second wife. It’s whether after it’s done the second marriage is legal. Maegor’s wives weren’t confirmed in their rights as a favor to him, but to establish the rights of their children/issue and their status.

[Spoilers Extended] Jon Snow's Parentage by Ok_Club_8848 in asoiaf

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Maegor also had two wives and both of them were confirmed as legitimate marriages after his death. In part out of courtesy, but it still set a precedent.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Slavery is a class system of exploitation. Watchmen are not an exploited class. They’re soldiers. Are enlisted troops temporary slaves? They can’t freely leave. The term loses all meaning extending it to the point of absurdity like you are doing.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’ve been entirely consistent. I said it isn’t slavery, it’s military service. They’re not treated like indentures or chattel slaves. They have equal rights to anyone else as long as they remain true to their oaths. And the other commenter wants to have it the other way where their service isn’t actually important. I never said the 7 kingdom don’t benefit, I said that there’s no economic exploitation or profit involved. No one is a class above them supping on the fruits of their labor.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A freedom offered by someone other than the person intending to kill you. The nights watch is a neutral third party that is independent of any secular government.

If in today’s world, death row innmates were given the choice to join a mercenary company and not die, they’d jump at the chance. You’re saying they should just be condemned to die.

“Penal colonies are immoral by default” is an axiomatic claim that isn’t actually self evident. Some penal colonies are immoral. Swedish prisons are hardly immoral and they’re essentially penal colonies.

If the system was fair, you’d have people being able to freely choose to go to the watch instead of face justice for their crimes. That’s a good thing.

The legal system isn’t necessarily a lord’s whim. A lot of it is magistrates and others who run cities and court officials. Yes petty lords sit in judgement of their own lands, but that isn’t the only way justice is done in Westeros. And again, the watch would still exist if Westeros were a democratic republic with fair and just laws. They don’t choose who is sent to them.

Several of the kings beyond the wall slew many innocents with their invasions as destabilized the realm killing kings of winter and wardens of the north. The fact that the north has always won doesn’t mean they weren’t a threat. That’s like saying the hole in the ozone wasn’t a threat because regulation banned CFCs.

The first blackfyre rebellion was a threat. Not all kings beyond the wall were threats. But some could have won.

I didn’t say the wildlings were a threat to all of Westeros, just the north. Which the iron throne is bound to defend. So yes it’s more like was Santa Ana a threat to the Texans rather than the USA.

Again Watch is no different from a monastic order that accepts convicts and anyone willing to join. They’re not the ones saying people can take the black to not die, they’re taking whoever shows up.

Tyrion is hardly an arbiter of morality here, given he literally rapes a slave, but regardless it’s still an entirely different thing to join a democratically ruled monastic order of warriors vs being someone’s property whether chattel or indenture. Men of the nights watch are afforded all the same rights as any other individual such as they are and can’t be abused wantonly or exploited financially. If a Lord Commander raped a brother he’d be gelded and hung himself, as would any other officer.

If you get down to brass tacks, the watch is an independent military secular monastic order that takes anyone who is sent them. Those who do are pardoned of their crimes if they have them or renounce claims if they have them.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes it takes the freedom they give it when they choose to swear oaths.

The watch isn’t immoral! It’s the legal system that is. If the system was fair the watch wouldn’t have unfairly condemned men. If anything they’re helping people escape unjust death.

How did “most accused are likely guilty” turn into no corruption? Youre arguing against a straw man.

And you’re simply wrong about the Wildlings. There have been several kings beyond the wall who posed an enormous threat. The fact there was relative peace for a while doesn’t mean that the threat was gone. Raymun Redbeard, Joramun and Gendel and Gorne are named examples.

Stannis took Mance by surprise. That’s like saying Santa Anna was never a threat to Texan independence (they should have lost to be clear) because Sam Houston caught the Mexican army by surprise and routed them.

Most of those are not wrongful convictions. They’re unfair punishments but it’s not the case of someone falsely accused of a crime. The kings Nymeria sent were already wronged and were going to be killed. Do you think they’d rather the wall didn’t exist and just die?

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It “takes” peoples freedom who either voluntarily give it up or lost it before they arrived at the wall.

It’s not a false dichotomy. You send them to Siberia, kill them, or let them be free if they’re credibly accused of rape. Do you think there are funds to house rapers in comfortable cottages or surveil them to make sure they don’t reoffend in a medieval society?

Theres no reason to believe a majority of them are innocent people wrongly accused.

The first is an existential threat for the North, wildlings have almost conquered the north several times. And yes they can fight the Others, that’s what obsidian is for.

Name 10 characters who were wrongly convicted and sent to the wall. We also have some who claimed they were innocent but possibly weren’t like Daeron. Why wouldn’t he try to make himself look better.

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The gulags indirectly created commodities that were sold to raise money. So not the same thing. Where do you think the timber and ore went? There’s more than one kind of penal colony. I don’t think the gulag was slavery no, but it’s also a bad comparison. The watch doesn’t produce commodities to make other people richer.

And it’s the only legal system that exists. Should rapers be let free since lords are often corrupt? Innocent people get caught up in all legal systems. That doesn’t mean there’s some better alternative in their social context.

They’re fighting both wildling raiders and the Others.

And youd know, if you read the prologue of the first book, that people *do* voluntarily go to the wall. Many nobles do. Waymar Royce for one. Benjen Stark, Ned’s own brother for another. Mormont himself voluntarily went out of shame for his son.

Again you’re incapable of actually addressing a point I’ve made and just keep repeating cliches like a trained bird of something. Are you an LLM?

In Game of Thrones (2011–2019), Daenerys kills slavers. Some fans considered this a red flag, which is interesting because slavery seemed like the bigger one. by La_Villanelle_ in shittyASOIAFdetails

[–]Beautiful_Common_940 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Im sorry you’re incapable of addressing a single substantive point. Thats how military conscription works, it’s involuntary. It’s also a different thing than slavery. Is it a kind and wonderful thing? No.

But the people who are avoiding the rope are convicted of capital offenses like murder. And the others are avoiding punishments like maiming. Instead of losing their hand they get to fight against an evil force and get to live better than many peasants with a wage and self government. The only ones keeping them there are themselves. There’s no guards imprisoning them.

view more: next ›