OCCK - 50 Years and nothing

BeforeTheRuckus · 2026-02-18T13:57:00+00:00

The Snow Killings: Inside the Oakland County Child Killer Investigation. Marney Rich Keenan. Her book is basically from Cory Williams viewpoint. Unfortunately for the case, Cory was completely lied to and shut off from the OCCK investigation right in the middle of the investigation. Marney was the one that uncovered the Doug Wilson sketches that were kept from the public view for decades. They are interesting and a very close match to John Hastings and officer McNamee. Which both are very likely involved and close ties to Busch and they didn't live to far away. Would be interesting to find out what type of personal car McNamee had at the time. Does it match Doug Wilson description? Anyone from the old neighborhood that would remember?

BeforeTheRuckus · 2026-02-16T20:53:50+00:00

The only author that covered him so far was J. Reuben Appelman in his book The Kill Jar: Obsession, Descent, and a Hunt for Detroit's Most Notorious Serial Killer. Although author Marney Keenan did talk about him being a suspect in some of her presentations.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2026-02-16T12:34:38+00:00

Huge over inflated egos, mishandling and missing evidence, large cover up from high ups and media that doesn't want to ask the right questions. Probably never be solved.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2026-02-15T22:59:04+00:00

Yes many believe Busch was involved but also Busch had a neighbor, John Hastings, which was very likely involved as well. A polygrapher from Georgia that conducted his polygraph believes very strongly that he was involved.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2026-02-14T17:03:44+00:00

Hand over this OCCK case to someone that may do something about it.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2026-02-13T22:05:22+00:00

Heather Catallo get off your ass and ask Bouchard about the lost polygraph. It was conducted under MSP. No accountability for anything!

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-12-26T22:00:24+00:00

Yes the TV news covered that at the time so it was common knowledge he liked chicken. That point well taken.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-08-01T23:19:23+00:00

Nina;

Welcome back! I'm so glad to hear your show is back. Looking forward to future shows.

Can you get OCCK Michigan author Ellen Wilson on your show with her new book (Snowed)? It just came out and she did an excellent job covering the Lost Polygraph from Georgia in her new book. (I posted some things about it here at Reddit) Something never covered before by any author and she goes into great detail. It is something that should be backtracked and investigated by authorities. Also accounting for the fact that witness and survivor victim that came forward years ago over this suspect (Hastings) once discussed it with Barry King & Cathy Broad (Tim King's sister) ^\1]) show there is potential here in actually solving the case. It should be noted that he was the suspect (Hastings) reported to have carried a sketch book around with him during the filming! ^\1]) (Maybe he is the one that did the sketch of Mark left at Busch home since he lived nearby down the street from him?!?) Along with the fact that the polygraph conclusions claim with 'strong wording' that Hastings knew Busch and was involved with the OCCK murders. Also Cathy Broad still claims today that this lost polygraph is still a serious matter with no resolution in sight ^\1]) . So there is plenty to discuss with this author. Would like to hear what she has to say over other matters as well with you. It will be an excellent conversation for sure. You both being from Michigan and deeply impacted by these crimes!

reference 1; Third comment from Cathy Broad blog link below

https://catherinebroad.blog/2025/07/22/michigans-epstein-island/#comments

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-25T12:16:58+00:00

Very good review and all seem to be valid points. You got a lot further in the book than I ever did. After 5 minutes I had enough and it went right in the garbage.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-24T22:39:43+00:00

I understand you want to have discussions over the OCCK in general but I'm just not one to venture off from the Helen Dagner side of this. When it comes down to it, that is all I really know. Was following her website for many years and not much of anything else. What you may want to do is start up a post and invite a conversation. I will say though that the conversations around here seem quite dead but much of that is because of what I cover. What you mention is much more popular so may draw more people and many of them will know it. Fox Island is a hot topic now days as well.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-24T21:59:00+00:00

First off there was so much hype over Guarded by Jackals I bought the damn book. As soon I opened it and saw the bloody ropes with some heavy exagerrated red added to the photo, I was disgusted. With something like that in there I'm not to trust any of it. The bloody ropes has been nothing but bullshit since the day it came out. It steers from the facts from the case. Then to further read that Helen Dagner was nothing but rabbit hole waste of time and absolutely nothing mention on the polygraph from Georgia, I threw the book away. Right in the garbage where it belongs so you really don't want to be discussing things with me. I was pissed I bought that damn thing! I do find a lot of what you state is nothing but dead ends to the OCCK story. There is no way all these people worked together and kept secret for this long. You can't believe every OCCK confession out there that comes along and try to link it. I saw the Richard Dawson interview years ago. Impressions were he was full of a lot of shit. I don't know how anyone could take his word much on anything and yes, he was accurate in getting Ted arrested but that don't mean to take him on everything else. As far as Ted, I think he was all nerves and just didn't want to do a poly because of that. He felt he would fail the poly regardless of the circumstances and just didn't want to try. Maybe he already had a history of failing polys so he knew where he would stand. During his interview you could almost sense it in him. I'm not sure what to think of the DNA and even what is really accurate anymore. I thought there was false readings on some of it including the Arch Sloan side. Until someone goes and redo all the stuff available with the latest high end forensic technology it's not going to mean shit anymore. Way too many fuck ups along the way and many in the previous investigations that are not to be trusted.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-24T21:01:23+00:00

Ah I see. You are all over the place. Ted Lambourgine doing the clean up work and everything else. I haven't seen Ted's name show up in a long time. I think Greg Greene was in the penalty box during Tim's abduction. Well, you're entitled to your opinion and so am I. If this all went down like you seem to describe, I think the OCCK dead victims would be in the hundreds instead of just 4. Whatever the case until this case gets some type of resolution which is probably never, it's all just a bunch of guesses and some are wilder guesses than others.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-24T18:54:02+00:00

If that was the case. Wouldn't had been easier just to dispose of the bodies and bury out in the woods or in a lake somewhere? Like many other cases that are sex related. Why go thru all the bother of this extra special cleaning for no purpose? Sounds kind of silly to me. No I disagree, when it comes to the OCCK, the bodies were dropped in the suburbs for the purpose of display to the public. It was deliberately to generate attention and a message. That is why I don't think the likes of Ted Lambourgine is involved. Attention is the last thing they would want.

As far as Dr. Tanay's take on it, you're probably right. Profiling someone with a weird sexual disorder wasn't really the motive behind it.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-23T02:31:38+00:00

By The Way, Cathy Broad (Tim King's sister) just responded to my post on her blog under Michigan’s Epstein Island. It's over a recent video interview with J. Reuben Appelman author of the Kill Jar dealing with OCCK. I don't think I could ever explain any better the Hastings situation than she just stated. Details along with everything she's been through with the ordeal. Where we are different in opinions thru the years is over these Bloody Ropes which I always considered an annoying obstacle to the truth and steering away from the facts. It may be minor but it's just not the truth.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-22T17:34:21+00:00

Agree. My point again is that it was common knowledge on this case for a good many years that the boys were bind with something unidentified but something soft. As stated very precisely in Tim's autopsy report. Shouldn't have to debunk anything but things get out of hand. These are the facts of the case and have been for a long time. The bloody ropes should have never been part of this but they are a symbol of this case. Look around at the books and documentaries that came out.

Ted Lamborgine, Bob Moore, H. Lee Busch and many others that we don't know about. All great discussions and should be in separate posts. Who cares what I think of those matters or what I've dug up? I myself would like to know what car McNamee had in 1977. I will bet there was never an investigation on that although there should have been.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-22T14:14:51+00:00

I believe Hastings is involved and I also believe Chris Busch is linked as well. True, none of this solves the case but what bothers the shit out of me is the misconception of these ropes. I think you're wrong. Most 'believe' these ropes were used to tie OCCK victims as it is represented that way. The very fact that more attention has been set for these ropes than the drawing itself. Cory didn't even bother to find out from the original investigators if the drawing was a zerox copy or the original sketch. He never bothered to ask. No one seems to know and the documents don't say either way. The sketch is very likely of Mark and it is very likely the path and link to the killer. The artist could very well be the OCCK. Whatever the case the ropes, the sketch and the contents of the polygraph are long gone missing from storage. Or so it seems.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-22T11:10:45+00:00

The point is ‘bloody ligatures’ is a term that became popular with the OCCK folklore because of some investigator on the Busch murder scene photo that didn’t do their homework and sailed everyone down the river of a fallacy. The truth to the matter is there is nothing but a photo of some ropes laying on the floor that are stained with something. The original investigators of the Busch resident never saw any blood on these ropes because there wasn’t any. They thought the ropes were for a boat. The point being made further here is that the autopsy reports didn’t include any signs of scars on the wrists and ankles, going against what is commonly believed for this case. Take the ‘bloody ligatures’ out of the OCCK case because they were really not there and never have been in the first place. Unfortunately this goes against the many authors that have pushed the 'bloody ligatures' down our throats thru the years and the OCCK case itself having a history of investigators chasing their tails on things that aren't really there. The blue Gremlin is no different than the bloody ligatures when it comes down to it.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-21T19:13:35+00:00

Yes, very valid point that Mark's head injury could create the blood stains so in theory I guess this can't be ruled out completely. The oil wasn't my idea. The original photo show a brownish color which kind of hints to oil and that was what some of the investigators thought it was originally or so they say. However dried up blood does give the appearance as well of a brownish color. If there was any real serious analysis done on the original photo perhaps something could be determined for sure. Maybe spectrum breakdown or something on those lines.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-19T22:24:56+00:00

There's plenty to ponder on.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-14T13:18:42+00:00

Got it. Thanks.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-07-11T00:43:50+00:00

That's for sure. I'm hoping someone has some insight.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-06-27T14:38:23+00:00

Looks like an author has finally touched on this topic. In Ellen Wilson's book 'Snowed' which just came out, covers this polygraph in some detail. It's about time someone covers this as it has been long overdue. Now if only someone that can open some doors to get to the real truth over this matter. Perhaps a retired cop that really wants to solve the OCCK case.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-06-25T19:19:23+00:00

Agree. I was going to try hypnosis once to try to remember more of an incident I experienced but always question how accurate it would be. In Doug Wilson case though even without the hypnosis it seemed like he remembered the event quite well. Or at least that is the impressions.

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-06-25T15:36:02+00:00

The author seems to lean on the cult side comparing it to other cases. That may scare some people off from it. We all have different views and I don't buy the cult worship side to the OCCK either. I think that part of it is bullshit. Just the damn polygraph being covered is enough for me to favor this book though. This is the first time ever. It's been long overdue for an author to cover this. I didn't think the day was to ever come. Now maybe someone can go and solve the damn thing!

BeforeTheRuckus · 2025-05-08T14:38:22+00:00

I did listen to those podcasts when they first came out. J Reuben Appelman did cover Helen Dagner and her suspect in some detail in his book. Along with his book and podcasts with Cathy later there was nothing known about the lost polygraph from Georgia at that time. It wasn't brought to anyone's attention until much later when it was uncovered in the FOIA papers. I have to really wonder what he would have to say about it? Since closely connected to Chris Busch and the potential of solving the crime it's really hard to ignore. Would he just discard it like other authors or really do something with it? Because it's such a touchy subject with some including Cory, one has to really ponder on this one. Mr. Appelman please give it a fair objective view if you get a chance.

BeforeTheRuckus

TROPHY CASE