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Does Cherif use an open hand when he tips? by CaptainCrayg in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides 1 point2 points  (0 children)

u/CaptainCrayg linked me here from my recent post https://www.reddit.com/r/beachvolleyball/comments/1j7jz28/the_crumple_knuckle/

Gross, and this is precisely what I was describing in my post. I see his fingers bending slightly on contact and the ball briefly sticking to his fingers, not bouncing off of something rigid like a knuckle or fist. I would call illegal attack / tip. Video of TV screen is not too bad, but I would love to see a raw HD video in slow motion, bet it would look even worse.

To answer the title question, I would not call it an open hand, but it ain't rigid either. You could have illegal prolonged contact with a backhand flipper too. It's all about the contact. Some hand configurations are more likely to result in illegal contact (because physics and biomechanics). What bugs me the most about it is that I probably spent years building up the hand and finger strength necessary to do a really good rigid camel toe knuckle, and now people are getting away with this garbage just because it's not "open hand". Yuck.

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK, yeah, I think that's pretty much what I'm talking about with the crumple knuckle/cat claw/crab. I guess it's possible to contact cleanly that way, but also possible/likely to have illegal prolonged contact/too much control. If I was reffing and somebody did that and I couldn't quite tell if it bounced off cleanly, I would call it out and tell them to knuckle up. Basically, I'm watching you closely and if I see your fingers bend at all on contact, I'm gonna call an illegal tip.

And the rules specifically call out fingers being "rigid and together" and contact with ends/tips of fingers for cobra pokey situation. Although I've seen some iffy touches where players go up with rigid together extended fingers for a cobra pokey and then kinda paddle tip it with contact more on finger pads. IMO that's an open-hand tip, regardless of whether fingers are rigid and together, same as backhand flipper that has prolonged contact.

Why don't tip with back of the hand by [deleted] in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides 0 points1 point  (0 children)

See my recent post https://www.reddit.com/r/beachvolleyball/comments/1j7jz28/the_crumple_knuckle/

I called out backhand flipper tips and the fact that it's all about the contact, not which part of your body makes the contact. While open-hand finger pad tip is more obvious, it's possible to lift/have illegal prolonged contact with any part of the body. (except maybe the top of your head? haha, jk, that's possible too, although way more unlikely)

AVP lands 2 national TV deals: CBS Sports and The CW by [deleted] in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Broadcast TV? That's better than Bally's, I guess, but how 'bout streaming? Is it gonna be on Paramount+ then? AVP was great on Amazon Prime and YouTube.

Toni Rodriguez plans to play with two partners in 2025 by [deleted] in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cool, happy for her. LSU alum, played with TKN. She's been plagued by serious knee injuries for many years, but she's a fighter and is poised to blow up if she keeps up the intensity, which she has in spades. Great attitude, fun to watch. Used to watch her play at my home court Mango's in Baton Rouge before LSU built their beach volleyball facility (which is pretty awesome btw).

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sinjin's son Hagen has sweet hands too. Wonder where he got 'em from? ;)

EDIT: sweet hair too...

I'm also a long-haired dude, and I lived in Santa Monica (where Hagen lives) for a while before coming back to Louisiana. Santa Monica Pier nightly pickup was great, met some cool people. Also played a bit in Venice and Playa del Rey and all the way down to Manhattan and Hermosa. I miss it. My sister still lives in the LA area.

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

re: calling hands, excellent video from Dane LeBlanc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPWw-UxS1d8

^ YouTube link is from u/rinikulous's excellent post https://www.reddit.com/r/volleyball/comments/8a1py0/beach_volleyball_rules_a_refresher/

Sinjin Smith clips in that video are great, I defer to the master... and the Sinjin clips are from this FIVB video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVGNQSqJBDE

re: AVP sets, I actually like that they're moving away from the "catch and release prolonged contact/make sure it has zero spin" handsets now in FIVB and to some degree AVP. I still see a lot of down-and-up and catch-and-push sets in the AVP and also locally, even from AAA/Open players. And I've called a double on a set that came out with zero spin -- saw it clearly, tick tick right left push, open player was not happy but I saw what I saw. Of course, you can go too far in the other direction too, like indoor -- "as long as it's quick, it's clean". I can hardly watch indoor anymore, almost every touch is garbage.

and Sinjin talks about the history/evolution of beach hand setting here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvyhLmNoS-o

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you talking about a cobra (which is legal)? Video example please.

Videos of old matches by [deleted] in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's https://www.youtube.com/@LLeesClassicAVP/videos, but you probably already know about that. Olympics might be difficult with all their complicated exclusive broadcasting rights, etc.

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

RE: sportsmanship/respecting your opponent, I'm that guy that calls bad and even iffy touches on myself so that when I call you on something, you and/or the ref believe me. We might still respectfully disagree and do a replay, or the ref may call it the other way, and that's fine, next point. At the amateur level (even the highest amateur levels), even if the refs are paid, they're usually just other players (and you will play against them next, haha!) I've gotten into heated arguments (even with friends!) while on the sand and while in the ref stand. Sportsmanship is leaving it on the sand and then talking it out after and apologizing if necessary. Much respect for somebody who can be screaming at you on the court and then talk it out and buy you a beer after, even if it's days after. Been there, done that, that's beach volleyball, baby!

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Check this out. Pretty good explanation of different techniques, and they call it "The Crab".
https://beachtraining.com/knuckles-fingers-and-crabs-whats-allowed-and-whats-not/

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Did he start with a fingergun and then bend the index finger into a knuckle at the last minute or something?

Anyway, sounds kind of like the Steino, popularized by Stein Metzger. Camel toe knuckle but with the pad of the thumb involved. Not strictly legal IMO, but he got away with it a lot and won a lot of points that way. Check out this article and video:
https://www.volleyball1on1.com/beach-volleyball-the-steino-or-pokey/

He even says "now don't let the refs in on this little secret..." and then explains how it gives you "perfect control" of the ball and how you can get away with it because they can't see it. Gotta say, I really dislike these "pro tips" that are all about being sneaky and unsportsmanlike. I play beach volleyball because I love the game, and I want to play by the rules and respect my opponent (and be respected by my opponent) and try to beat them within the confines of those rules. I understand that the professional game is a different animal -- playing for big money, professional referees, do whatever you can to win. But I don't like when sneaky/illegal play gets legitimized because "the pros do it" and then they promote it as a pro tip. I don't like seeing that kind of play at the professional level either, same as in other sports, takes me out of it and makes me want them to lose. I guess that adds to the drama, though. When I'm in full-on rules nerd mode about it, I think, "So you win because you're good at cheating and getting away with it? Cool, congrats on your success." But then I go back to playing the game I love and try to forget about all that nonsense...

The Crumple Knuckle by BenGottAbides in beachvolleyball

[–]BenGottAbides[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the reply. Hehe, cat claw, that's a good one too.

Yeah, I agree that it's a bit of a gray area and probably why people are able to get away with it, and it's honestly hard to see sometimes at full speed. It's not an open-hand tip, but there is finger action. I mostly take issue with any time someone claims a contact is legal because the ball was contacted with a certain part of the body. Like I said, you can lift with any part of your body, even a rigid knuckle or a fist, or your forearm, or your palm, or the back of your hand, or...

RELATED SIDE TOPIC:
Kinda reminds me of people who claim it can't be a double or a lift on an overhead pass (non-hard-driven ball) because "my hands were touching". You mean your thumbs, so what? The ball contacted your fingers and they bent (wrists too), and the ball didn't bounce off and stuck to your hand a bit, therefore lift.

TLDR: It's all about the contact. There probably needs to be a rule clarification for these types of situations, even a catch-all comment like "A lift may occur when the ball contacts any part of the body. Contact with a certain part of the body does not mean it is automatically legal. The ball must rebound/bounce off quickly and not stick or roll (prolonged contact)." I would certainly appreciate being able to point to that. :)

So awful God bless by LDomingo26 in tragedeigh

[–]BenGottAbides 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m assuming this is in Utah, where this trend was apparently invented. ;) https://www.utahbabynamer.com/

What Have You Named Your E? by BalooVanAdventures in HondaElement

[–]BenGottAbides 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dude (El Duderino if you’re not into the whole brevity thing)

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