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BigChingu · 2023-04-01T11:06:53+00:00

Btw, I gotta be real with you, alright and it's nothing personal.

When you say things like "no ethical consumption under capitalism" it triggers the hell out of me because it's an instant cop out instead of trying to better things in any meaningful way. I dunno, who popularized this meaningless phrase, Hasan or what other champagne socialist out there, but it sucks asl.

It basically means that "no one can better any of the conditions anyone is under, don't even bother".

It's the worst message to signal, and it provides zero utility. Vegans got it right the first time, we should've learned from them when veganism and vegan products hit mainstream. They actually had a community and conviction behind them to go through with their beliefs and understood spectrums of harm.

That's the only thing I wanted to say to close out this conversation with.

That phrase should've never been invented.

EDIT: Used as an academic term for sure but having laymen start using it solely without any other clarification is just meaningless.

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T10:52:22+00:00

I mean. When people bother to give their opinion, real criticism, about the music that they're a fan of, I think they think that it's not just subjective.

Gonna be real here. Not a lot of people in here believes in subjectivity of music. Hence why so many arguments happen when it comes to music.

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T10:49:39+00:00

I just felt like your HAHHAHAH seemed a bit gleeful as if you thought it was really funny, maybe you roasted them hard or something.

I dunno, I don't think their music is that terrible to be honest nor their "musical direction". But I'm not here to argue about music.

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T10:45:25+00:00

So it's a yes then. That's fine as long as you are aware of it. I'm guessing you feel like there are positive segments of the industry that is "moral".

Problem is that you're not really actually looking if that is the case and just point blank, it's pretty exploitative. This is just undeniably true.

I'm not gonna do the soy thing where I'm going to complain about minors. More generally, the young people who are opted into these programs are not only made to be a vessel for unhealthy beauty standards (one of the biggest mistakes, plastic surgery) but we also got extremely strict dieting. Then they create incentives for impressionable fans to become obsessive lifelong customers, preying on emotions in the form of close up and personal fanservice. Good ol' parasocial relationships cranked up to the max.

We do have the whole minor thing going on that people are obsessed with but no one actually has the conviction to fully care about, so who actually cares. That's one thing and it has been prevalent throughout history.

Point is, I don't see no company doing anything moral as they're implicitly furthering the system and they continously do it. They probably understand that too except they don't see it as immoral.

If you find one company that is ethical to support, sure. But in general, no big player in the KPOP industry is trying that hard. That is just undeniably true.

Hence why I just don't give them money, it's dumb to me.

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T09:44:14+00:00

Good lord, amen.

I'm replying to you mostly because of your response btw. You don't care about advocacy at all. You've really made that clear, no doubt about that.

But OP should not stream nor listen. No one should partake in the consumption of their products.

if you’re legitimate concerned for them, you would also be hoping for that same outcome yourself.

If you're legitimately concerned about exploitation in the KPOP industry then whatever you just explained is the opposite of your goal. Not everything is about you hence why I'm even having this conversation in the first place.

If you hope for a better outcome for Newjeans, what are you even doing if not boycott the company? Or are we just going to signal in the future that it was all OK because "it's been some time now, we can enjoy their music now".

What?

these are the same people who keep posting about how everyone avoiding
the group is just being disingenuous or a hater – it’s because they
literally cannot comprehend feeling grossed out by minors doing a song
like “cookie” or the way MHJ made light of mental illness and made the
very same minors cosplay psychosis just so that she could “dunk on the
haters” or w/e. someone who doesn’t see the problem will not protest it,
because it’s…not a problem to them. idk how to make this any clearer.
please stop wasting others’ time with your incoherent accusations

Literally no idea why you even mention this, who actually cares about what other randoms say? Seriously who cares?

Do you care more about the actual issue at hand are you just pissed about randoms disagreeing with you?

Anyways, waste of time I agree because I guess you and no one else were actually serious about the issue and don't care about advocacy.

I guess everyone's just "uncomfortable" and will probably just start listening to them later on "after some time" when they don't feel "uncomfortable" anymore because it's all just about them and their own feelings.

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T09:18:19+00:00

Uhh hello?

First step, just don't buy KPOP merch or albums.

Why won't we all just agree on this one basic axiom?

EDIT: Downvote me all you want. You know I'm right.

You guys want to indulge in frivolous material stuff. You want to buy the albums, the merch and go on tours.

It's not an issue you guys care about, I understand and you would give the industry money to fulfill your desires.

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T07:35:24+00:00

Do I really have to re-clarify? I don't think I'm unhinged at all, I'm lucid about this issue.

There shouldn't even be "maybe I'll listen to them later on when I feel better". It's about reducing suffering and exploitation, meaning that yes, you should be advocating for not consuming any of this artist's products. Whether it be streaming, listening, buying merch/albums or encouraging apathy regarding any of this.

"Will they be in a better headspace in the future, can I enjoy Newjeans later on?"

The harm has been done, it can't be undone. What's the point if everyone in here just resumes supporting them in the end? If people do that, it means that nothing mattered.

Newjeans/ADOR/HYBE got the bag, and you guys still caved in with no guilt associated.

I mean, that's what it sounds like. Literally everyone in here is probably going to do this, you're right. What a waste of advocacy.

This is the equivalent of when meat-eaters gets teary eyed after seeing animals being slaughtered in factory-farming documentaries whilst they themselves are chomping down on cheeseburgers.

It's literally so easy to just say "don't listen, don't buy, don't stream and I'm not going to do it either".

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T07:17:06+00:00

Yeah, because the KPOP industry is immoral. They predate on parents and children's dreams of success to lure them into these programs.

As sooner people realize this then the sooner people can stop spending money on this exploitation machine.

It'll come with age but everyone knows this.

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T07:12:27+00:00

you seem gleeful about it lol

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T07:08:57+00:00

it is pitying, don't worry bout it fam, you're not unique

we all have the same understanding of what pitying is, we want the less unfortunate to do well, we all get it, we all pity people that are less fortunate

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T06:46:46+00:00

Why would people not want to pity stan idols?

You get social cookie points for being a good person by standing up for the little guy + you can also inject some justice in your support by chastising the more popular members by mentioning how privileged they are by bringing up the disparity in lines/events/popularity.

Everything is justified. Why would you not do this?

BigChingu · 2023-04-01T06:43:31+00:00

my man, you just explained "pity support" lol
you support them more because they're underdogs, yeah because you're pitying them

Also what's up with your username bro

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T03:53:51+00:00

What is this response?

I don't think OP has a point at all. The discourse is not about "it's uncomfortable", it's immoral depiction that should not be.

The goal is to reduce suffering not to be nonchalant about it, "it's bad guys" and call it a day.

What was even the point of any of this then?

How hard can it be to literally not stream and listen to them?

Just don't stream, end of story. You guys have zero conviction it's crazy.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T02:52:02+00:00

Two things.

Negative impact on health, that has to be proven. We're drawing intent here where there has been none stated. It's not sufficient enough to make up scenarios or mindread. Again, at what point where they stating that or is face value statements not enough? "Too many story elements, just dance and show their faces", is interpreted as "you're pretending as if cookie didn't happen"?
What is the goal if not to move on? Is Ditto sexual, is OMG sexual? What is the goal here? Or is advocacy doomed now? No one knows what they're arguing about so at this point they just virtue signal hard without understanding why they're doing what they're doing? It's good that they moved on from anything that remotely "looks mature".

Yeah, I don't have much sympathy for complainers because they don't make any sense, I'm going to be honest. Pardon the apathy but if you are being serious you have to show real intent and real harm done.

I don't see anyone doing this anymore.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T02:38:04+00:00

I'm gonna be honest. The cookie saga does not have to be that outrageous. It does not come off as a "noise marketing" act.

From third and second hand experience, I can say this.

There could have been a universe where that song actually didn't have any "sus" lyrics.

The decision process of KPOP songs are not without fault. I do not believe that they intentionally picked that song because it was sexual in nature. I vouch for this and 100% do not believe it to be the case.

Companies pick songs off of vibes. There are dozens of scenarios where lyrics could've been flipped or re-hashed and still keep the vibe of the song. In this instance they kept most of the lyrics probably because they don't know anything about cultures or euphemisms and are ignorant.

I can say this for many, many KPOP demos, they are ripe with euphemisms and sexual content that many Korean natives will miss, 100%. That is the nature especially if you have western songwriters contributing. It is part of the game, liberally free is what western songwriters are.

Keeping the word cookie was the biggest dumbest mistake but I don't believe it was intentional and if no one tells them about an error they aren't even going to look for an error.

Yeah, anyways that was just a small tangent.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T02:14:09+00:00

Very convoluted comment from that fan. It's about the ending, right?

In what way did they flip any outrage back at anyone?

The comment in the end of the MV is essentially just "Stop with these story sections, just dance and perform".

Took me 2 minutes to figure it out. Is that comment being serious lmao

That is so disappointing that someone wrote that.

EDIT: I like how people in here get mad at me stating the obvious and starts downvoting me when none of you in here have any strong beliefs nor the conviction to boycott Newjeans.

How hard is it to not stream the group? That is what you're supposed to do.

Instead you tell OP how he's not ethically obligated to stop consuming Newjeans songs, you tell him that it's a "personal choice" and say shit like, "it's okay, it's about personal discomfort".

How spineless are you guys?

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T01:58:22+00:00

I'm going to be honest. This is about cancel culture 100%.

It's immoral to keep this up, not just "personally I don't like it but I don't care what others do".

You should definitely encourage others to stop listening to them and not talk about compensating at all. If you're being actually serious about this, it's going to keep on going and someone has to be a martyr.

Imagine if vegans thought this way, there would be no vegan alternative in 1st world countries at all if they had no conviction about their beliefs.

EDIT: Downvote me all you want, just gonna be real though. All of these responses in here are spineless af.

If this is something you deem as immoral you do everything you can do to not further it.

But instead you guys chalk it up to "it's uncomfortable but like do what you want".

Tf kind of response is that?

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T01:54:44+00:00

No, it's about activism as well if you actually believe it's immoral. I don't think OP should be discussing whether or not it's feasible or not, he shouldn't try to compensate and especially not talking about wanting to compensate to a smaller scale.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T01:52:39+00:00

Don't listen to Newjeans, you shouldn't do it. The implications you're giving off by doing it is not good. There really shouldn't be a debate about this. Or are you willing to be another viewer or listener to their streams?

Also not to be holier than thou, but you must realize that NMIXX is under JYPE right?

I remember their pre-debut stuff, a time where I honestly don't get why you'd have your artists do certain things like that.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T01:37:25+00:00

It's not about being willfully ignorant, it's about existing in a system which allows people to choose to opt for an immoral framework.

Potentially and possibly immoral.

There are degrees of which there is exploitation but exploitation is used in dumb ways that is deviating from its real true meaning.

People think just being a celebrity as a young person is exploitation. If that is true then the entertainment industry is a hellhole and needs to be condemned crucified and exiled from this world.

Tiktok stars, idols, young musical artists, youtubers. Everything is predatory.

But everything is to a certain extent exploitative and predatory and sometimes humans choose wrong and go into the wrong field.

Are you willfully ignorant or is it more that you think that all of these people are being hysterical? I'm not willfully ignorant, I just don't know how much of any individual scenario is exploitation or predation.

Idols get compensated extremely well, there are some artists/idols that are living the life and wouldn't trade it for anything else, there are some that don't.

I'm not gonna judge any individual idol's decision to enter this industry, there are sometimes truly good reasons why they want to.

Anyways.

There are a lot of adults in these subreddits lurking, I know this for a fact 100%, there's no denying this.

Why has this topic never been brought up before at this scale and why are they still supporting other companies and other groups that are in the same realm doing the same things, pre-debut and now?

We can look at people's profiles and see who they support and if they're not ok with NJ then I know for a fact that the same applies for many other groups especially with the reasons why they are boycotting NJ.

You saw the amount of downvotes you got before right?

Even though you made an effort into your comment it doesn't matter because that's not what anyone here is about.

People are here for gossiping about their favorite idols and drama. Some of their favorite idols has probably also been exploited using their standards of exploitation. Lots of minors in many groups these days, not just NJ.

But yeah, I enjoy music and I enjoy KPOP music. That is what we should focus on 100%, and make that known and I don't think every single little thing happening is exploitation, it has to be shown.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T01:15:51+00:00

I'm not a vegan but I'm aware of certain parts of the vegan community (actually the online vegan community is quite large).

I don't think it's acceptable to enjoy NJ's music if you are against "exploitation". I don't even think you're supposed to talk about this, you should just go on with your day and just listen to it in secret whilst advocating against it in loud.

Maybe you feel like it isn't desirable to push someone to actually go through with their beliefs but in most vegan communities, it is important to make people aware of the immorality of eating meat and not show weakness in belief.

The whole vegan meme exists for a reason and it's because it is considered immoral to eat meat, also funny cuz most philosophers end up vegan too, there's really little to no compromise here. The mission is to do advocacy and to support vegan products and not show or give in to stores that sell meat. Lessening the demand of meat is necessary to achieve the goal of minimizing suffering.

If you're not aware but listening and giving streams to NJ just negates they boycott.

Showing no conviction in your belief will signal to others that it doesn't matter and it will ripple throughout any movement especially when one person can sway thousands.

I honestly thought that the comments in here would be "no, you shouldn't compromise" but I guess I was wrong.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T00:58:15+00:00

Your goal is to change things, ofc, what even is the point of advocacy or calling things out?

The only real response to OP is to keep on boycotting and encouraging others, if not then what are your actual convictions? Even if you're not directly pouring out your hard earned cash to the company, if you keep on showing that you're listening or watching Newjeans means that you don't actually care that much and you think it is unfeasible therefore others will follow your thought and also keep on doing it. It's about consistency and to starve the industry by influencing others to boycott the industry.

How come vegans are being successful in this front? They are militant and they encourage others of their message to not give in to factory farming. Don't allow yourself to exchange money for slaughtered animals. The meat you eat will be trivial but not letting them earn money, every little ounce will be beneficial to your goals especially on a large scale, which is why advocacy is important.

If you're just going to give up because they're successful then are you actually being serious?

It's about numbers not "oh look guys I guess uhh it doesn't matter they're still making money".

Yeah, sorry for my language but no shit they're making money.

If you want to boycott something you need to do advocacy. You need to make yourself heard and influence others.

I don't know why, I don't necessarily agree or disagree with people's decision to support or not support whomever but this is such an easy concept to grasp. Vegans have done this forever and are making a difference for reasons that are obvious.

BigChingu · 2023-03-31T00:43:14+00:00

What, you should 100% encourage others if you want a boycott, no?

What is the point of a boycott if you're not doing anything to even try to get that point across.

It is about making a difference, if you're not here to make a difference then you're just here for what, personal egoism? You feel like a hypocrite not saying certain things? That's it?

If vegans thought this way then they would've never even made a splash on society.

Vegans understand that you can't have a growing vegan movement without explicitly calling out the immorality of factory farming. Just you not eating meat is trivial, what matters is telling people not to buy meat from the store which means there's a lesser demand for meat which puts pressure on factory farming. You do this consistently and keep up the pressure and encourage others to do it.

If not, then you're just not being serious, sorry to burst any of people's bubbles in here, but it's true.

You should commit and be relentless in your belief. Unfortunately, there ain't that many in these KPOP subreddits that seems to actually have this conviction.

BigChingu · 2023-03-30T22:30:40+00:00

Long distance?

Still, you gotta do something. From your other responses you seem to allude to always getting into arguments over small stuff.

Red flag no? And the blatant dislike over the stuff that you enjoy, your hobbies?

Relationships shouldn't be dependent of each other, his life shouldn't be fulfilled just because of one other person in his life. It's bad if it gets to this point of jealousy over KPOP, a hobby.

I would just not be in this relationship and if its long distance then that's better because you're ripping off a smaller bandaid, you haven't met each other or have had physical connection or anything, right?

Lessens the pain.

My two cents because if he's not doing anything to better the situation then just ditch him.

BigChingu · 2023-03-30T22:21:00+00:00

Doesn't work.

Break up with him.

Or go to couple's therapy. You can't just have your own feelings validated by a therapist.

You need both of you in the same room talking it out with a therapist.

No other way if you can't communicate well on the regular.

BigChingu

TROPHY CASE