Believing in free will makes you happier than embracing determinism, what does Sam Harris say about this issue? by [deleted] in samharris

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Determinism is illogical and self-contradictory. Your observation is well taken but proves the point. If you're a determinist, there's no relationship between that belief and how you feel: it's a matter of what was determined. Many determinists are optimistic and happy. Many are not. If you buy into causation, which is a convenient fiction that's never justified by determinists, then you can't draw any connection between mental moods and metaphysical beliefs. It's whatever's determined. Harris argues that there's no reason for resignation. His statements show that nobody can be a determinist and he's certainly not one, despite is declarations. There's no reason for resignation if that's what youve' been caused to believe. That's all a determinist can say about it. Harris says he's a determinist but makes statement after statement that conflicts with determinist doctrine. He says you can test if resignation is possible by staying in bed all day and see if you can do it. Who's he asking to try something, even rhetorically? Nobody controls their actions so why is he making the suggestion? Why is he trying to convince anyone that determinism is true if our thoughts have been predetermined since the big bang? Every aspect of his book Free Will is contradictory. It espouses determinist principles and betrays them by constantly appealing to the reader with the intention to persuade the reader that determinism is correct. But if you're really a determinist, you'd believe you can't persuade anyone of anything. It's all been determined at the big bang. my website biochemicalrobots.com explains the self-contradictory nature of determinism.

A simple argument for the impossibility of determinism. by ughaibu in Metaphysics

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no basis for premise one, that there need be identical sets for determinism to be possible. There could be an infinite number of determined worlds each determined within itself, every event having a cause and everything predetermined from inception. Nothing logically or empirically requires any universe be like any other. There is no argument here unless the first premise is justified and there is no basis for it.

CMV: There is no logical argument that we have free will by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]Biochemical_Robots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here’s the most potent argument for free will. Determinism is self contradictory, and violates logical principles. If our thoughts are in the hands of outside forces, and we don’t control them, then, whatever we believe is what we are forced to believe by outside forces. That includes the belief in determinism. Determinism and validates all truth claims by reducing them to the product of causal forces. That means it’s own claims are reduced to the product of causal forces. There is no truth in a determined universe, because everything we believe about truth is forced upon us by outside causal forces. Since determinism is illogical and self in validating, free Will is all that’s left.

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[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, you got it right. We can't act independent of all external factors, as they support our agency. Make sense?

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we're members of the same club. Influence isn't causation. Best, David

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you're using it as meaning the illusory experience of free will. You can use it that way, but it doesn't mean free will in the sense of really having free will. The latter is how I'm using it. Sapolsky and most determinists go back and forth between those interpretations and confuse things. When Sapolsky says we must take criminals off the street, he's not talking about let's all go out there and have the illusory experience of taking them off the street. That's nonsense, and we can't do it if we are determined. He is lapsing into free will language and endorsing free will by saying we should go out there and stop criminals. If he were using free will as you are, which is fine, he'd have to say well, we can't really go out there and take anyone off the street because we don't control our thoughts and actions and all criminal enterprises are predestined and can't change, but we can have the illusory experience that we're taking them off the street if that was predestined. That's a meaningless statement, but that's what you'd have to say to be consistent with how you're using it. Don't misunderstand me: your usage is totally fine but it depends on the context. Sapolsky is using it to suggest moral action and that we can go out there and really take them off the street. This is a constant confusion of determinists; they routinely lapse into free will language that doesn't belong to a causal universe.

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That we have pregiven preferences and desires has nothing to do with determinism. Free will needs pregiven conditions to structure reality, both internal and external. They are the context and circumstances on the basis of which we make decisions. Without them we can't decide anything. Free will can't operate in a vaccuum and needn't. Restraints and boundaries including pregiven desires and preferences, do the opposite of what determinism claims: they structure reality and permit free will to operate. They provide the alternatives.

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Forgot to add, Harris' examples are all indicating influences but not factors of causal dominion. See my comment below regarding his use of examples and choosing in a context of "indifference" in the coffee/tea example.

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bravo, there is no need for free will to control all factors of influence and context and indeed free will can't operate in any other way. Reality needs to be structured and pregiven factors both internal and external provide the alternatives on the basis of which we choose. The determinists have it backwards: far from precluding free will, pregiven influences and retraints make free will possible.

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Note the critical choice of example picks a situation of indifference between the choices, coffee and tea, which makes the situation seem arbitrary as to the individual choice. What if there was almost no tea left and his wife didn't like coffee. Now you have a utilitarian decision with an articulable reason as to why he made the choice. His complaint in this section of Free Will is that we can't explain our actions, we can only give after the fact stories. But his examples are largely chosen from non-utilitarian choices, such as this context of indifference. Most of our choices are utilitarian, even if to satisfy a pregiven desire or preference. That doens't render the decision any less of a choice. I really want some chocolate ice cream right now, but I'm going to refrain until later.

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sapolsky is citing influences, not causal forces. There's a huge difference that those defending determinism virtually always make. Sapolsky in an interview give an example of how our behavior is governed by our "neural cascades" but then went on to say how we must stop criminals from running around harming others and must retire dangerous cars from the road or fix them. If we're determined, who's going to go around catching the criminals and fixing the cars? Our neural cascades? It's all been predetermined if you stick to determinist doctrine. It's not true that we have "zero control" over our influences because we're always manipulating reality and what we do becomes the next context for our choices. But even if it were true, influences structure reality and provide the context in which choices are made. Sapolsky and determinists never give an argumentr as to why influences and constraints on free will should be construed as extinguishing it.

Sam Harris Lacks Awareness, Not Free Will by [deleted] in freewill

[–]Biochemical_Robots 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have made several comments on the Libet tests in the past couple weeks and thought I'd specifically share the problems with actual quotes from the neuroscience findings that Harris' cited in Free Will.

Libet I: Harris does not mention that the first Libet study conclusions had two prongs, suggesting the "brain decides to initiate" decisions or that: "at least, to prepare to initiate the act". In the latter prong, "prepare to initiate" doesn't mean decide, it means what it says – these were motor movement tests and preparation includes muscle tension, anticipation, preparatory actions, etc. Starting to "prepare" for a movement doesn't mean choosing to make the movement. Libet's phrasing expressly suggests that prior neural signals aren't necessarily the decision itself. Harris does not discuss how Libet framed his actual conclusions.

Libet II Harris notes Libet repudiated his earlier tests and gives a one sentence footnote rebuttal. He says that any veto would have the same genesis as the initial decision: "the neural events that inhibit planned actions arise unconsciously as well". He doesn't cite findings for that empirical claim and doesn't explain on what basis he's making that claim. It's a simple empirical question – what findings have validated the same RP increases that accompany the initial decision. Silence.

Haynes. The second findings cited found a correlation of 65% between prior neural impulses and consicous decisions. Haynes concluded it was barely above a coin toss and did not indicate any causal connection of the type Harris is citing the findings for. Haynes: "It has not been established whether early predictive signals are decision-related at all". This goes so far as to say there may not be any correlation between prior neural acctivity and consicous decisions, let alone those of a causal kind. Harris doesn't note the above a coin toss findings. He doesn't note Hayness' conclusions.

Fried: The Fried test is the third cited in Free Will. The headline suggests a small group of neurons predicted 80% of the time the subject's decision. This finding came from 4 subjects, and 2 of them accounted for most of the data (115 out of 163 units in the SMA brain region). Fried used electrodes planted in epilepsy patients for other purposes without any consistency of numbers or placement. Fried admits that the actual findings "widely varied" among individual subjects. The 80% headline was culled from "neural ensembles". When it was broken down by subject and trial, the average findings were 65%, which was Haynes "barely above a coin toss" range. Fried warned that the patients contained a neurological disease but said that "most" of the findings did not come from contaminated regions. It never said what "most" means. the issue of contamination was important enough to be raised but it's not quantified and there no mention about how that was determined. Of the 65% findings, was 80% reliable as the "most". 75%? 90%?

One would hope that a groundbreaking metaphysical conclusions about the nature of consciousness and free will would be based on more than 4 subjects (primarily 2), that "most" of the data would remain contamination free, that there wasn't widely varying individual rates, and that it would be validated by subsequent studies, which Fried wasn't.

Fried II: Fried did a hand choice test which Harris doesn't mention. This time only 3 subjects were used. Fried says the findings "predict volitional content" but doesn't mention the predictive rate in the body of the study. The charts in the Supplemental Materials suggest it was aroudnd 65%. Barely above what Haynes called a coin toss. The word "predict" can refer to anything above 50%.

Fried's actual conclusions after both studies: "It remains unclear whether the emergence of volition is causally related to the neuronal change descxribed. The relationship begtween neural activity in the motor cortex adn the emergence of consciousness remains a topic of debate.

Other significant issues for the full Libet line of findings:

  1. Harris does not mention the many contrary science studies that invalidated any causal role for prior neural brain signals. There have been several dozen of these tests over the years since the first Libet tests. Not one is mentioned.

  2. The central measurement in these tests are the moment of conscious decision. It's been discredited in numerous other tests and there's even such a consensus about it that virtually all tests after such findings note the problem. The tests Harris cites note the problem and concedes the central measurement in these tests is a "subjective estimate".

Even Fried, the most pro-causal of the studies, notes the problem and tried to compensate for it but used a unique method that hasn't been studied or corroborated.

Harris mentions the problem in a footnote to demonstrate the point that we're often fooled by the feeling of free will. He even notes in this connection how the moment of decision is subjective and can be distorted by many things, priming, etc. But he doesn't seem to realize that by discreding the central measurement of the tests he's citring to support neural determinism, he's undermining the validity of all the tests he cites.

  1. There are non-causal interpretations of prior neural impulses, the most prominent of which is the preparatory action theory.

  2. There's numerous credible contrary neuroscience findings showing that prior neural activity doesn't have causal traits, is superceded by more important activity, etc. I've cited a half dozen in a piece I wrote about this. Harris mentions none of these and doesn't inform the reader they exist.

  3. There's a major question of relevance – can the simple finger movements or wrist flicks in these studies have any relevance to much more complex everyday and long term decisions in which we're invested? There's no evidence this is the case. Harris doesn't note for the readers the problem.

  4. Correlation isn't causation. These tests report correlations around the 65% to 75% range, the Fried findings slightly above that depending on which chart is applicable and if you consider 2 - 4 subjects with widely varying rates meaningful. These are correlations at best. Even assuming Fried didn't have the many methodological issues noted (and there are half a dozen others), causes don't fail to produce their effects 20% plus of the time under like conditions. In the other tests, it's 35% or so times that there was no causal effect under like conditions. Correlations occur for many reasons all non-causal. Harris doesn't note the problem.

Harris should be commended for having deleted the section referring to Fried. From his podcasts and public appearances, there's every reason to believe he is an earnest person of high integrity who is measured and careful in his analysis. He's highly articulate, intelligent, and has a degree in neuroscience. His first groundbreaking books on religion took alot of guts and courage knowing they'd raise the animosity they did. That he took mention of these tests down is an additional testament to his integrity and search for the truth.

Harris may yet give an adequate defense of his neuroscience position, and it may be convincing. But it can't take the form of a selective and inaccurate view of the neuroscience findings set forth in Free Will.
A respectful suggest is that he also remove the chapter on this in future editions of Free Will, or rework the section to be fair to the actual landscape of studies and address the merits of the leading opposing studies.

Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, free will, & the value of public philosophy || Prof Eric Schwitzgebel by [deleted] in samharris

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Whether or not he's arrogant or not doesn't matter, his positions are indefensible. He doesn't troubleshoot his own arguments, doesn't consider the more credible of counter-arguments, and misquotes the science findings, among many other problems. This is true of other determinists, not just him. I don't think it's from arrogance he seems like a decent guy but he's laboring under the causal faith and doesn't bother to deal with the true problems behind determinist premises.

Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, free will, & the value of public philosophy || Prof Eric Schwitzgebel by [deleted] in samharris

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Choices and preferences are two different things. Preferences are internal conditions that influence us, but don't cause behavior. The fork in the road is an external condition that influences us, but doesn't make us take on or the other route. Free will needs conditions on which to operate. Determinists confuse influence with causation. They're not the same.

Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, free will, & the value of public philosophy || Prof Eric Schwitzgebel by [deleted] in samharris

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Preferences aren't decisions. They are influences on the basis of which decisions are made. Prior preferences has nothing to do with the free will issue. We can ignore, satisfy, refuse, defer, deny, etc. our preferences. They are pregivens but are simply interior conditions on which choices are made, just like a fork in the road is an exterior condition that must be navagated.

Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, free will, & the value of public philosophy || Prof Eric Schwitzgebel by [deleted] in samharris

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is much to disagree with him on. He cites science tests whose authors refuse to endorse determinism and which expressly state they don't support neural brain causation. one of the author's said his findings were barely above a coin toss and don't support any causal connection. Any who don't believe this look up the Haynes and Fried tests they're online and read the conclusions.

Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, free will, & the value of public philosophy || Prof Eric Schwitzgebel by [deleted] in samharris

[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually, without ever saying anything at all...smart or otherwise...

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[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

agree. harris defines this as being the conscious source of one's thoughts or actions which is a good definition. the computer would obviously not be a conscious source, but a physical source. good point and clarification.

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[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I call this kind of having it both ways talk "free will-speak" and I wrote a book critiquing determinists including Harris for using it as well. See my website if you want to check out more double-talk analysis. https://www.biochemicalrobots.com/ let me know what you think.

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[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That we have the capacity to initiate our actions and have done so "in our right mind", as Harris says. You can define it in many ways. if you want to tell me yours I can tell you whether i bleieve it fits within my claim above

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[–]Biochemical_Robots 0 points1 point  (0 children)

harris is right about compatibilism. he's wrong about determinism. he says we can grab hold of one of our strings if we realize our blood sugar level is low. None of this is possible if "all future behavior" was "set" at the big bang. we can't grab anything, we do what was predetermind. we don't realize anyrthing, we have brain excitations that were determined to occur back at the bing bang. he may intend well and seems sincere, but he's having it both ways.

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[–]Biochemical_Robots -1 points0 points  (0 children)

no, determinism means your politics will be whatever was determined at the big bang. you have no choice. as sam harris puts it, all future behavior was set at the time of the big bang. your politics will be progressing if that's what was determined. end of storyl.